From Alamo-Girl to Waco Researchers:

ALL of my instincts scream that the key to unraveling the story of Waco rests in determining the cause for the hole in the bunker and the fireball. We have made tremendous progress on these threads both debunking some ideas and rooting out more details and viewpoints.

It seems there would be few munitions that could have caused the bunker hole and damage, that those items would be strictly inventoried, and whoever would have used them would be the key witness.

I don't doubt there may be disinformation, intentional and accidental, but I am not inclined to dismiss anyone's theory out-of-hand - simply because each theory may contain elements of truth or leads.

Waco Holocaust Museum "....The report from the Department of Justice (parent organization to FBI) does not mention the hole. ....."

On Danforth's report:

InsideTheWeb 8/2/00 Mike McNulty plus addendum by Sharlene Shappart "........But more important, why did you say that there was no evidence of blast injury to the persons found in the "bunker"? The autopsies spell out the fact that the babies and some of the young women in the food storage locker died of blunt force trauma, the concrete from the hole in the ceiling tore their bodies apart. Jack have you looked at the pictures of the children's remains and the video tape of their removal? Their was a device on the roof of the bunker. It did detonate. It was not just a Davidian home made , black powder , fragmentation grenade exploding on a weakened concrete ceiling. It was a high explosive charge that blew a 20 inch hole thru about eight inches of still viable , steel re-enforced concrete. The detonation can be seen on the TV footage and then, after the high explosive detonation one can see the ignition of the air and propane mixture, already in the atmosphere. Please note that the area of the concrete storage room that received the hole in it was exposed to the heat of the fire for mere minutes before the explosion detonated on the roof. It was simply not enough time to sufficiently weaken the concrete to allow the omni-directional force of a weak, homemade fragmentation grenade to create the kind of over-pressure in the room that is seen in the photos made by the FBI in the aftermath of the fire. Jack, that's only one of many points that you are not 100% accurate on. ......"

ALTERNATIVE WORKING THEORIES

WACO- Issues on the hole in the bunker and the fireball: Summary by Freeper Ol'DanTucker "....

1) Novel says the hole and fireball was caused by detasheet in a 20"x8" camping container.

2) Carol Valentine of WHEM - Her website makes no mention of the hole in the roof, only that the Davidians were killed prior to the final day and that their bodies were put into the concrete structure to "launder" or hide the true nature of their deaths. She also maintains that the fireball wasn't caused by the ruptured propane tank. She claims that the fireball was as a result of a 55-gal drum of jet fuel that was intentionally detonated by military personnel. - Freeper Ol'DanTucker

3) WANR says it was shaped charge/ruptured propane tank.

4) US Govt says the fireball was caused by the 100-Lb. propane tank, outside, on the ground...."

[Note: there were two propane tanks in the aftermath pictures, on the ground, outside. One was ruptured, one not.]

GOVERNMENT INVESTIGATION

St Louis Post Dispatch 12/4/99 William Freivogel Terry Ganey "..... One other finding of the investigators who went through the Waco evidence last month was that there was no evidence to support McNulty's claim that the government may have used a high explosive "shaped charge" to blow a hole in a concrete bunker in which children had taken refuge. If a shaped charge had been used, it would have left telltale signs, investigators say. There would have been pieces of wire that are used in the charge, and the steel rods in the concrete would have been vaporized. But there were no wires in the evidence, sources say, and the rods were bent but not vaporized....."

Freeper Cvengr "...Since the investigation obviously spent considerable time and effort sorting through the debris to show no wire existed and obviously rigorous calculations had been made to conclude that the wire would exist, while a thick rebar imbedded in concrete must be vaporized (while ignoring the remaining concrete material which wasn't vaporized) rather than the rebar being bent.... "

http://reagan.com/HotTopics.main/HotMike/document-12.8.1998.4.html CarolMoore@kreative.net "....Edward S.G. Dennis, Jr., was described as "Partner with Morgan, Lewis & Bockius in Philadelphia and co-chairman of the Corporate Investigations and Criminal Defense Practice Group." The Justice Department appointed Dennis, himself a former head of the Justice Department's Criminal Division to be the chief reviewer of the government's procedures, decisions and actions in Waco. Dennis, whose investigations of the Philadelphia police department's bombing of the MOVE group and of Banca Lavoro have bee criticized by the press, did not complain when the Justice Department review team withheld damaging information from the Justice Department's panel of ten outside experts and even from its chief overseer, including missing physical evidence, withheld audio and video tapes, letters, memorandum, etc. The results of his "investigation" are contained in his October, 1993 "Evaluation of the Handling of the Branch Davidian Stand-off in Waco, Texas," an evaluation of the larger Justice Department to the Attorney General...."

Boston Review Alan A. Stone "....Reno had ordered the Justice Department to investigate itself and the FBI. The supposedly independent investigator, Edward Dennis, an assistant attorney general during the Reagan administration, based his report on that less than searching self-examination. The result was a total whitewash: Dennis proclaimed the operation a success even though all the patients died. He determined that the Branch Davidians had started the fire themselves in a mass suicide and that the FBI had never fired a single shot into the compound............. "

Freeper Republic ".... X-rays disappear from autopsied bodies of people like Vince Foster and Ron Brown, the all important evidence bearing front door of the Davidian Home goes missing and now I learn that the roof of the vault, the evidence bearing, possibly detonated hole in that roof is ---POOF!---GONE... And on top of all this missing evidence, of course, we learn that records disappear, people cannot remember who hired major staff members, high ranking officials give FBI files to journalists yet keep their high ranking jobs, attorney generals take blame for massacres of close to 80 American citizens yet stay put...and on and on. ....."

New York Times 9/3/99 Ronald Noble "...It is one thing to call for an independent investigation, and it is another to give that investigation the power to write a credible report..... Let's remember that this would be the second investigation the Justice Department has conducted into the events at Waco. In 1993, Edward S. G. Dennis Jr., a well-respected former Federal prosecutor, wrote a report based on the Justice Department's factual account of what happened. This report largely exonerated the F.B.I. and the Justice Department but did not fully gain the confidence of those who wanted an independent investigation. In hindsight, it seems that the Justice Department made a mistake in not ordering an independent investigation back in 1993. Now the reputations of Janet Reno, Louis Freeh, Edward Dennis, the F.B.I. and the entire Justice Department are sullied. ...... ....."

http://reagan.com/HotTopics.main/HotMike/document-12.8.1998.4.html CarolMoore@kreative.net "....According to press reports, the White House has chosen Ronald K. Noble and Edward S.G. Dennis, Jr. to participate in the Wednesday, December 9th morning panel on "Prosecutorial Standards for Obstruction of Justice and Perjury." It can hardly be a coincidence that these two men oversaw the Treasury and Justice Department reports on the BATF and FBI actions against the Branch Davidians outside of Waco Texas in 1993 that led to the deaths of 82 civilians and four federal agents...... Ronald Noble was described as "associate professor of law at New York University Law School and former undersecretary of the Treasury for enforcement." On February 26, 1998 the not-yet- confirmed Noble participated in the decision to allow BATF agents to attack Davidians two days later. In late April, 1993 Treasury Secretary Lloyd Bentsen selected Noble to head the Treasury Department investigation, an investigation which ignored evidence of serious BATF crimes, including lying to the military and shooting from helicopters that killed four Davidians. The results of his "investigation" are contained in the September, 1993 "Report of the Department of the Treasury on the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms Investigation of Vernon Wayne Howell also known as David Koresh."

Drudge Report 7/3/99 "..." A former U.S. law enforcement official on Friday was chosen as the lead candidate to head Interpol, the global law enforcement organization. Ron Noble, former Treasury undersecretary for enforcement, was named during an executive session at Interpol headquarters in Lyon, France. Noble, 42, best known as the chief investigator of the failed Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms raid on the Branch Davidian compound outside Waco, Texas, is the only person the United States has ever nominated to head Interpol in the 75-year history of the organization. Attorney General Janet Reno personally picked Noble for the position. ..."

8/7/97 Michael Reagan's Hot Topics "....In early June Lewis C. Merletti, who led the Treasury Department's investigation of the 1993 raid on the Branch Davidians, was sworn in as the 19th director of the Secret Service. The Treasury Report, while allowing some criticism of the planning and execution of the raid, promoted the government lies that the Davidians shot first, ambushing federal agents. It also totally failed to address serious allegations that agents shot from helicopters, killing four Davidians. Nor did it admit that BATF agents actually lied to the army about Davidian's involvement in drugs in order to receive free aid and special forces training that would not have been permitted without the drug connection...."

Investor's Business Daily 5/20/99 Editorial "... Estranged Clinton campaign guru Dick Morris fingers IGI as ''the White House secret police.'' That's not a stretch, Milton said, ''judging by the revolving door between IGI and the administration.'' Those who jumped from IGI to the administration include: Raymond Kelly, who became Clinton's Secret Service chief. Ricki Seidman, who joined the Justice Department. Brooke Shearer, who joined Hillary's staff and ran a White House intern program before moving to a job at the Interior Department. Even Lenzner's daughter. She became an intern to former Clinton aide George Stephanopoulos. Meantime, those who left the administration for IGI include: Former FBI General Counsel Howard Shapiro, who has signed on as Lenzner's lawyer. Shapiro was supposed to get to the bottom of the Filegate scandal. Instead, he did damage control for the White House, sneaking officials a peek at FBI agent Gary Aldrich's manuscript to ''Unlimited Access.'' Former FBI official Larry Potts (of Ruby Ridge fame), who's now an IGI executive...."

Freeper FrogMom 1/28/00 ".... Don't know if this will do you any good, but University of Maryland has or had campuses on many military bases. They had free or very reduced-cost classrooms and lots of GIs to educate. Very lucrative deal for the UoM....."

Freeper amom 1/31/00 "....The Spring 1997 Conference will be held in West Helena, AR. on Wednesday, March 26-27, 1997. 9:00 a.m. - 11:00 a.m. Domestic Terrorism: Identification and Characteristics Bill Buford, Resident Agent in Charge of ATF's Little Rock Field Office will kickoff the educational sessions with discussion of domestic terrorism. Do probation and parole officers have a role in detecting and preventing terrorism? How can officers best fulfill their responsibilities? Bill Buford will answer these questions and talk about the characteristics of terrorists.
11:00 a.m. - Noon. Waco: A Review to Include Right Wing Religious Organizations
During the segment Bill Buford will talk on right-wing religious organizations, he will share the insights he has gained during his many years of experience including his experience in Waco. Bill Buford has 25 years with the ATF and has been in Little Rock since March 1976. He was awarded ATF's "Medal of Valor", and "Gold Star" for wounds received in a hostile action, and the "Hostile Action Award"......"

Dallas Morning News 9/9/99 Lee Hancock "....But a GAO investigator said the inquiry could not fully account for why the FBI's tactical experts also obtained 250 high-explosive 40 mm rounds, devices commonly used as anti personnel ordnance, from Fort Hood during the standoff. Mr. Collingwood said the shipment, described by some military veterans as enough high-explosive rounds to supply an entire Army company, was probably a routine delivery for FBI tactical teams around the country. "I'm not sure it had any connection with Waco. All of our SWAT teams have them," he said, adding that the rounds were acquired from Fort Hood because "that's the only place you can buy them." Danny Coulson, founding commander of the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team, said the high-explosive rounds could have been sent to Waco as a precautionary measure....."

The Dallas Morning News 9/8/99 Lee Hancock "... The other question left unresolved was the supply of 250 40-mm high explosive rounds to the FBI's hostage rescue team. Records from Fort Hood's III Corps indicated that the Army supplied those rounds along with 50 illumination rounds and 200 practice rounds to the hostage rescue team, along with a refresher training session in mid-March 1993 at a Fort Hood firing range. FBI agents were armed with shoulder-fired grenade launchers, and they used those to fire both nonflammable tear gas and pyrotechnic tear-gas rounds during their final assault. While military records tracked a specific FBI agent requesting and receiving the illumination and practice rounds, however, there were no records to explain who asked for the high-explosive shells and why they were needed in Waco. "We questioned it and we weren't able to get any more information," she said....."

Fox News 9/10/99 John Soloman "....The first 48 pages of the lab report had been turned over to lawmakers years ago, absent the mention of the tear gas that government officials for years had denied using. The 49th page disclosed that FBI investigators who examined the scene at Waco found a "fired US military 40 mm shell casing which originally contained a CS gas round," and two "expended 40mm tear gas projections." The report is likely to become a key piece of evidence in the independent inquiry ordered by Attorney General Janet Reno and separate congressional investigations into whether government officials tried to cover up about the use of incendiary tear gas on the final day of the siege. The missing page of the report and the memo were obtained by AP...... The lab report does not specifically state whether the gas in the shells was incendiary or when they had been fired. But the potentially flammable M651 tear gas canisters that the FBI belatedly acknowledged using on the final day of the siege are 40mm military shells like those described in the lab report. ..... ....."

Waco Museum "...But let's turn to Sgt. Raymond Coffman, the Texas Ranger in charge of the crime scene in the concrete room, to find out what happened instead (full text of Sgt. Coffman's testimony). ..... But the diagram of the first floor of the Mt. Carmel Center made by AFT informant David Block, the Dumb Diagram published in the Treasury Report, on page 47-- clearly labels the concrete room as a pantry area. The words "dry food" "ref." and "food storage" are clearly marked on the diagram (Dumb Diagram of Mt. Carmel: First Floor).....There was no arsenal in the pantry/concrete room before the raid of February 28. Indeed, there was no mention of the room and its usage during the siege. But right after the fire and the possession of the property by the US troops on April 19, the room underwent a transformation. It was instantaneously a "bunker " and an arsenal--and a mausoleum.....The concrete room measured nineteen by twenty feet; the walk-in refrigerator, which measured eight feet by four feet, contained only water (Transcript, pg. 957); therefore, the space in which the 400,000 spent shells, the wooden boxes of unused ammunition, and the various 133 guns/grenades/rocket launchers were situated measured twelve by fifteen feet. Yet we are asked to believe that 33 or 43 people (see below) crowded into this space to seek protection from the C/S gas attack. (Transcript, pg. 902 and 903.) ....... ...."

FoxNews Drudge Report 8/29/99 Transcript "...DRUDGE: Has Governor Bush of Texas been of any assistance to you and your efforts? HARDY: I regret I'm not really on a talking basis with him. I wouldn't mind if I was. I hope that he's playing some role with the Texas Rangers, but I wouldn't actually know. DRUDGE: Well, there is a theory in Washington, especially coming from critters in the White House, that Bush is orchestrating this since it is date line Texas, but I don't have any info on that. That's just theory...."

NY Times Jim Yardley "....From November 1998 to last March, McNulty said, he paid four visits to the evidence rooms in Austin, always escorted by at least one Texas Ranger. He said he found at least four projectiles that he believes are pyrotechnic, and took samples for munitions testing...... Patterson said he first contacted Clay Johnson, chief of staff for Gov. George W. Bush, who referred him to James B. Francis Jr., chairman of the Department of Public Safety. Patterson said he met with Francis, explaining that neither the Rangers nor the Justice Department claimed to control access to the evidence from the fire......."

Fox News Online 8/26/99 Renee Schilhab "..... GOP presidential candidate and Texas Gov. George W. Bush thanked Texas officials for their handling of the matter. "I want to compliment our Department of Public Safety officials in Texas for helping to lay out the facts," Bush said during a press conference in South Carolina on Thursday. "Our Texas Rangers were charged with investigating the facts. It's important for the facts to be laid bare as they have been in this case. Hopefully the FBI will respond accordingly." ..... "

Judicial Watch 8/26/99 Joe Giganti "...Responding today to the Reno Justice Department's belated admission that it used pyrotechnic devices at Waco, Judicial Watch called today on Texas Governor George W. Bush to institute a state criminal investigation against Janet Reno and others for the wrongful deaths of those who died in the Waco inferno in 1993. ..."

William Cooper 3/22/00 VNS [unverified] "....... Confidential sources, Patriots in government, tell me that military personnel from Delta Force, upon orders of the President of the United States, entered the Branch Davidian Church on April 19, 1993 and executed everyone that they could find who was still alive. Members of Delta Force in support of armored vehicles, and FBI snipers, murdered all of the Davidians who attempted to flee the fire. Only those Davidians were allowed to survive who escaped on the side of the building which was in the direct view of reporters using telescopic lenses.......:

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "....[Alamo-Girl said:] I didn't realize that Judge Smith had disallowed discussion of the bunker roof! When did that happen?! Was it in the original pleadings? ........ Yup. When the plaintiffs (Ramsey Clark, I believe) tried to say that the government used a shaped charge on the roof, Judge Smith ruled that they couldn't bring that up in the case because they didn't have the evidence to support it. No roof, no hole, no nothing. I wonder how different the case would have been had the plaintiffs questioned the stated official causes of death vs. the size of the hole in the supposedly collapsed roof and the true conditions of the bodies. ....."

Freeper MouthOfSouth 3/22/00 "....Here is what Craig Roberts has to say to Drudge Report on this: From: Craig Roberts ......... FLIR only "sees" the infrared/heat light spectrum in shades of gray. It does NOT see reflections of broken glass, headlights on cars, flashlights etc. I used FLIR for three years in our police helicopters, and I am a factory trained FLIR technician. I can tell you now, and in any court in the land, that there is no such thing as FLIR seeing reflected light! .........I told Hardy and the other Waco investigators this in a ten page report I wrote for the NRA back when the FLIR tape became available and I was one of the first one's to see it. The biggest point in the FLIR tape is not the gunfire, it's the fact that an CEV or Bradley busted in to the gym area and stayed there for some time before pulling back, long before the other "tanks" showed up out front to begin breaking holes into the structure. Then the CEV went back into the gym and stayed for a couple of minutes, and when it came out, fires began to break out inside the building. It appears to me that this vehicle took a team in and dropped them off, then went back to pick them up. This is what should have been explored, but no one ever took that information and did anything with it. ....."

"Waco: A New Revelation" Reviewed by Gavin Phillips "..................Frederic Whitehurst "...Following the gassing, the mothers of the children take them to an enclosed concrete vault which the FBI called "the bunker." The FBI gasses the bunker for two hours." .....

........We now have credible testimony that elite government assassins were illegally deployed at Waco. Even more disturbing, and also new to this documentary, is the very strong evidence that a high explosive "shape charge" was purposely placed on the concrete room where many children and woman were staying. During the documentary you see the percussion of an explosion and then a dramatic fireball, which was most likely due to a rupturing propane gas bottle. We are then shown a photograph and still video footage of an approximate three foot round hole on the top of the concrete cinder block, the last sanctuary of the woman and babies. Explosive experts say this is the result of a shaped charge placed there by government agents. Steven Barry states; "...The, the blast hole at the top of the roof, you can plainly see the rebar is bent in. The damage to the stainless steel refrigerator, which appears to have been under the blast hole is consistent with a shape charge." Colonel Jack Frost Ordnance Engineer USAF Retired, states; "...Having examined still photographs and video tapes of the bunker it was apparent to me that this was caused by a shape charge. But what bothers me is who would have the audacity to use such a charge." Some have said that the hole was made by the small gas tank, but you see the explosion before the fireball of the propane gas ignition. The cinder block was bulldozed and the concrete buried. Some six years later it was dug up in order to test the concrete around the hole to ascertain what caused it. "Surprisingly," the concrete around the hole was "missing." ........

The Dallas Morning News 3/16/00 Lee Hancock "...... DAVIDIAN ALLEGATIONS Here are some of the allegations by attorneys for the Branch Davidians and their survivors, who say evidence provided by federal agencies from the Waco standoff is flawed, suspect or missing: ......6. Missing DPS crime-scene film ....* The Rangers said they've found that one roll of crime-scene photos turned over to the FBI in 1993 is missing. The discovery was made after negatives from the photos were returned to the DPS last fall. The roll of film includes photos taken of the cinderblock room, or "bunker," where bodies of most of the Branch Davidian women and children were found after the siege. ......"

TECHNICAL ON THE METHODOLOGY

Freeper veracious 1/27/00 "....People that study and perfect warfare know that the highest probable cause of that hole is a placed explosive. People that study and perfect warfare know that you do not send armoured fighting vehicles into close combat without infantry support to keep the defenders from destroying them. All the explainations (cover) for the destroyed bunker and machine gun fire on the FLIR tapes, does not change the fact that any well planned assault would have including both of these techniques. ...."

Freeper RangerX 1/27/00 ".....If I recall correctly, the CEV is based on the M60 tank chassis, which has a belly hatch where you can get out of the tank from the bottom. CEVs entered the building. If I were the guy that had to place the charge, I'd probably go into the building under armor (inside the CEV) drop through the bottom hatch, set the charge with a timer, and get back into the CEV. I could also envision just placing the charge using the boom on the CEV, but that would be a little harder to do. A long shot would be the shoulder fired breaching charge, which I know was under development several years ago, but I'm still trying to track down. My guess is a placed charge of C4. Wouldn't be that hard to do....."

Freeper Cynic #456,789 9/2/99 "...The following information prints out at page 86 of 137 (not 187, and the last 20 pages are footnotes/references) and is at http://www.myplanet.net/jeffhead/dadmisc/waco_mas.htm#T300

The Associated Press account in a section above describes the entry through the front door. "Then the FBI sent in its biggest weapon--a massive armored vehicle larger than the others and headed for a chamber lined with cinder blocks." i.e., the concrete room. " (Survivors) said the tank took out a barrel of propane, flattening the container and spilling its contents. And as the tank thundered through the house it tipped over lit camping lanterns, spitting flames that ignited the propane and other flammables. . .The building erupted. It happened too fast to pull fire extinguishers from the walls." [320] Although Branch Davidian survivors claim it was this tank entry which started the fire, the Justice report does not mention its entry in its section on the final tank attacks. (JDR:294) The report does include the 11:59:16 infrared photo of the tank at the front door. [320]. Associated Press story, "Tanks, chemicals couldn't break resolve of cultists," Washington Times, April 23, 1993...."

International Workers Bulletin 4/26/93 "...Moreover, there is mounting evidence to disprove the initial FBI claims that the deaths were the result of mass suicide. All six survivors who have spoken to defense attorneys have given similar accounts that the fire began when an armored vehicle smashed through a wall of the compound and ruptured a large propane tank. The survivors have also stated that the tank attack caused structural damage inside the compound that made it impossible to open doors once the fire began. The position of the bodies so far discovered, distributed widely throughout the compound, indicates that the victims were not herded together or held at gunpoint by Koresh and his closest aides. Rather the fire raced through the old wooden structure so swiftly that most were overcome by smoke and only a handful could make their way out....."

1/96 Expert Testimony Richard Sherrow "... External electrical power was turned off to the structure prior to the fire but a diesel generator of unknown capacity was present within the structure and had been known to be energized intermittently between February 28 and April 19, 1993. Moreover, several storage areas and rooms were known to contain large amounts of highly flammable and combustible materials, including, but not limited to, gasoline, kerosene, lamp oil, Coleman lantern fuel, paint, petroleum distillates, tar and roofing materials, acetylene and oxygen containers, gunpowder, metal shavings, and a large quantity of small arms ammunition. Internal heating and cooking fires were provided by improvised wood-burning stoves and propane fueled gas ranges, respectively. Due to the lack of external electrical power, internal lighting was accomplished with Coleman-type gas pressurized lanterns and glass oil-burning wick lamps. It is known that a large, commercial-type gas range was located in the kitchen/dining area adjacent to the four-story tower. This range was fed by a large, 100 pound propane tank located externally to the dining room. The propane was conducted through the wall at that location by a conduit pipe. The tank appeared to be nearly full of propane as evidenced by a spectacular boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion (BLEVE) during the fire. Mount Carmel Center was occupied as a multi-family residential building with shared common areas, including a commercial-sized kitchen, and compartmented into many smaller rooms used for personal quarters...."

1/96 Expert Testimony Richard Sherrow "...During the breaching operation, one of the CD/s (CEV-1) was ordered to penetrate the structure from one side to the other. CEV-1, with its bulldozer blade pushing debris in front of it, penetrated to the base of the four-story tower, making contact with the concrete storage structure at the tower's base. This structure was already in a weakened condition from a previous fire as noted above. The contact, made by such a large and powerful vehicle, probably caused a structural failure and resulted in an internal avalanche of the room contents and partial failure of the concrete ceiling. This entrapped numerous people, mostly women and children, who had taken refuge therein. ...."

12:08:11--Infrared photo shows large fire already developed on dining room wall and tank sitting north of collapsed gymnasium roof. News video shows tank west of dining room from which smoke is seen billowing.

12:20-12:25 Approx.--Four story tower collapses. News videos show tank smashing into front of building as it burns, possibly preventing Davidians from escaping. Chief negotiator Byron Sage has a trophy photograph taken of himself with the burning Mount Carmel in the background. Huge fire ball explodes near concrete room.

Freeper ~Vor~ 9/1/99 continues "...I am currently reading the book, "The Ashes of Waco...An Investigation", by Dick J. Reavis. I looked up Bryon Sage's name in the index and the following is the only mention of him in the entire book: While the tanks were rudely bringing down Mt. Carmel, FBI chief negotiator Bryon Sage and an assistant were attempting to calm those inside. Over the public address system that had earlier given voice to Nancy Sinatra and Alice Cooper, the two were broadcasting a new message. "This is not an assault. This is not an assault," the message said. "We will not be entering the building." Surviving residents say that in making their entries, the tanks knocked over lanterns and cans of fuel, and crushed a pressurized tank filled with liquified propane gas, a volatile heating and cooking fuel. About the time that the fire got under way, transcripts show that the Bureau's broadcasters began to ad-lib, adding to their prepared text exclamations like, "David, you have had your fifteen minutes of fame," and, "Vernon is finished. He's no longer the Messiah!"..."

Freeper Alamo-Girl 2/1/00 ".....On another thread, Freeper d14truth raised the question whether "bubblehead" which is a Navy term could mean some of their guys were involved at Waco in some way. About the U.S. Navy and Counter-Terrorism - the closest I could get to anything comparable to Delta Force...

PHASE ONE LAW ENFORCEMENT TRAINING Security Department Duties and Responsibilities
LESSON GUIDE #101
NAVAL SUPPORT ACTIVITY MONTEREY BAY
DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SAFETY
LAW ENFORCEMENT DIVISION
TRAINING BRANCH
Monterey, CA 93943

http://web.nps.navy.mil/~police/101.htm "....Background: As a result of terrorist attacks against Naval installations during the mid-1980's, and the destruction of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon, SECNAV directed that a team be organized that was experienced in terrorist tactics. The team's mission is to provide realistic anti-terrorist exercises for Fleet activities. Thus, the team designated as the "Red Cell" was formed and later redesignated as the Naval Security Coordination Team or NSCT....."

Applied Marine Technology, Inc. http://www.amti.net/sec/pe.htm

".....Our cadre of security professionals is drawn from many sources. They include former law enforcement professionals, operations officers from the national intelligence community, and former members of the military's Special Operations Forces -- the U.S. Navy's SEAL Team SIX, the Naval Security Coordination Team (RED CELL), and the U.S. Army's Special Forces Operational Detachment - DELTA. This unusual blend of talent permits AMTI to approach our clients' security concerns from multiple perspectives -- including that of a potential adversary........"

DBD Information Security "..... DBD Information Security, a DBD Group company, is dedicated to providing only the best in information security solutions to today's Fortune 1000 companies and Government agencies. Since 1995, DBD Information Security, has been at the cutting edge of data protection, recovery and intrusion forensics....... Our staff and contractors are taken from only the best professionals in the United States, and include personnel with a broad array of information security skills and many noted contributions in their fields. Distinctions of DBD-IS Staff range from former Green Berets & operants for Red Cell, to authors of public security software, tools, and definitive books on information security......"

http://www.topcities.com/Entertainment/roguewarrior/glossary.html
NSCT Naval Security Coordination Team (Navyspeak name for Red Cell).
OP 06D Cover organization for Red Cell/NSCT.

http://www.topcities.com/Entertainment/roguewarrior/marcinkobio.html

CDR Richard Marcinko
Editors Comment: "What ever you do, don't ... with this Guy."

Over his thirty year naval career, Richard Marcinko worked his way from enlisted man to the rank of captain. During his early years, Marcinko joined the UDTs (Underwater Demolition Teams), and served as a Navy SEAL during the war in Vietnam. While serving 2 tours in Vietnam, Marcinko won the Silver Star, four bronze stars with combat V, two Navy Commendation Medals, and the Vietnamese Cross of Gallantry with Silver Star. Marcinko's SEAL platoon became such an enemy killing force, that the Viet Cong posted a reward of 50,000 piasters for his death.

Besides serving as a Naval Attache to Cambodia and later as CO of SEAL Team Two, Marcinko was the founder and first Commanding Officer of two of the military's premier counter-terrorist units: SEAL TEAM SIX and RED CELL. The legendary SEAL TEAM SIX engaged in highly classified counter terrorist missions in Central America, the Middle East, the North Sea, Africa and beyond.

While commanding RED CELL, Marcinko used his teams' expertise as Navy SEALs to test the Navy's anti-terrorist capabilities. The result: RED CELL infiltrated supposedly impenetrable US military bases, weapons storage areas, aircraft carriers, nuclear submarines, and other "secure areas". As Red Cell penetrated bases and took hostages, Marcinko's unit ran roughshod over would be defenders. Nothing was immune to RED CELL's "terrorist attacks", not even the President's jet, Air Force One.

http://www.topcities.com/Entertainment/roguewarrior/nonfiction.html

THE REAL TEAM: ROGUE WARRIOR

by Richard Marcinko

".....Richard Marcinko first exploded out of the clandestine world of special forces/unconventional warfare with his #1 New York Times bestselling autobiography Rogue Warrior(r). Now, after coauthoring five consecutive New York Times bestselling Rogue Warrior novels based on the exploits of his SEAL Teams, he calls upon the warriors who served by his side to tell their own stories. The Real Team tells it like it is: how highly motivated individuals come to the Teams, how they train, and how they fight in the four corners of the globe. ....The Real Team also reveals the Rogue Warrior's secrets for Team selection and Team Maintenance. From setting up an ambush to making a HAHO -- high altitude, high opening -- parachute jump, from the Philippines to Desert Storm, the stories in the book are about real men and real missions, and about the SEAL mentality of teamwork, training, loyalty, and never-say-die aggression. For it is the spirit of the real Teams that shaped these extraordinary individuals and positioned them for success -- in every battlefield and every endeavor they would face in life..... Col. David H. Hackworth, USA (Ret.) author of About Face: The Odyssey of an American Warrior Bull's eye! Right on target. It makes Tom Clancy's stuff read like Bambi. It's rude and crude, gritty and U.S. Navy SEAL bad...."

Freeper Republic 2/1/00 ".... Basic question here: Delta Force (if that is the real name of this covert operational team) is a branch of which service? Army-Marine-Navy-or-Air Force?...."

Freeper Alamo-Girl 2/1/00 ".... I think the use of the word bubblehead in Navy jargon has caused some to wonder if Navy guys were there, in which case the question would be: which Navy guys??? And to that, all I could come up with was Red Cell - though, Republic brings up a good question about the make-up of the Delta team..."

Freeper RangerX 2/1/00 "....Basic question here: Delta Force (if that is the real name of this covert operational team) is a branch of which service? Army-Marine-Navy-or-Air Force? .... Army, headquartered at Fort Bragg....."

Freeper Republic 2/1/00 "..... The term 'bubblehead' to me means that those related in some way to the US Navy were present. The red cell operation and before that, the navy 'seals' are both very special operative teams as described above-focused on anti-terrorist activities. Wondering now if Delta Force was a cover name for one of these groups-I expect any special forces member is an expert in explosives-simply by the nature of the beast....."

Freeper Alamo-Girl 2/1/00 ".... Do the Delta guys ever work with the Navy guys, like the NSCT/Red Cell? Joint Task Force, perhaps or some such??? ...."

Freeper Alamo-Girl 2/1/00 "...It appears that Navy guys could very well have been involved with the Joint Task Force, as follows: http://www-jtf6.bliss.army.mil/

Joint Task Force Six (JTF-6), located at Biggs Army Airfield, Fort Bliss, Texas, is assigned to U.S. Joint Forces Command, under the operational control of the U.S. Army Forces Command. JTF-6 is a multi-service command comprised of approximately 159 soldiers, sailors, Marines, airmen, and civilians employees. JTF-6's role in the counterdrug effort is articulated in its mission statement:

JTF-6 synchronizes and integrates DOD operational, technological, training and intelligence support to domestic law enforcement agencies' counterdrug efforts in the continental United States to reduce the availability of illegal drugs in the United States.

JTF-6 was established in 1989, and its mission originally focused exclusively along the Southwest border of the United States. A succession of National Defense Authorization Acts expanded the JTF-6 charter by adding specific mission tasks for the organization. In 1995, the JTF-6 area of responsibility expanded to include the entire continental United States.

JTF-6 is a busy, dynamic organization of DOD professionals in support of our Nation's domestic law enforcement agencies. Our dedication to this counterdrug support role is best summed up in our motto, "Service to the Nation."

http://www.fas.org/2000/hr104749/05.htm "...On February 2, 1993, Operation Alliance made a request to the Commanding General of JTF-6 for the use of Special Forces personnel assigned to his organization.\221\ Lt. Col. Philip W. Lindley,\222\ the U.S. Army Special Forces Command Staff Judge Advocate, was notified of this request and advised JTF-6....Within days, the training mission by Special Forces soldiers was revised to include only coordination on Army ranges and teaching ATF how to develop an operations order.\226\..."

Independence Institute Homepage 1996 David Kopel Paul Blackman "...With this knowledge, JTF-6 signed onto the mission of "training a National Level Response Team [BATF strike-force] for Counter Drug operations," in "Support of BATF Takedown of Meth Lab."[29] According to documents received from the U.S. Special Operations Command under Freedom of Information Act requests, the Joint Training operation (JT002-93) was approved due to a request from BATF dated February 2, 1993, requesting U.S. and Texas National Guard assistance in serving a federal search warrant "to a dangerous extremist organization believed to be producing methamphetamine."[30] The Army assistance at Waco would supposedly be "in direct support of interdiction activities along the southwest border."[31] (Notwithstanding the fact that Waco is approximately 300 miles from the southwest border. Moreover, the original claim was that Koresh was manufacturing methamphetamine, not that he was importing it from Mexico.)(p.626) Had BATF actually been planning to take down a methamphetamine lab, its plans would have been far different......"

Independence Institute Homepage 1996 David Kopel Paul Blackman "...When JTF-6 was not looking, BATF did not even bother to pretend that drugs were involved. Notably, the initial warrant application included nothing regarding drug law violations--even though the presence of a drug lab would have given BATF clear legal authority to search for the presence of any type of firearm (not just machine guns and explosives, which were the target of the search warrant), and even though the warrant affidavit threw in all sorts of other unsubstantiated allegations about Koresh.[35] After the February 28, 1993, BATF raid was repulsed, BATF sought and obtained a second warrant expanding the authorized scope of the search of Mount Carmel. Even the second warrant application did not include allegations of illegal drug activity......"

http://www.fas.org/2000/hr104749/05.htm

"..... The chronology of ATF's request for military assistance provides insight into how early ATF wanted military assistance, how the military and ATF became concerned with the drug nexus issue, and how the military's concerns changed the scope of military assistance provided. As early as November 1992, ATF agents were discussing the need for military support with Lt. Col. Lon Walker, the Defense Department representative to ATF.\186\ In his ``summary of events'' \187\ November entry, Lt. Col. Walker specifically states that, at that time, he was not told of any drug connection.\188\....

By December 1992 (almost 3 months before the raid), ATF agents were requesting Close Quarters Combat/Close Quarters Battle \189\ (CQB) training by U.S. Army Special Forces soldiers for ATF agents.\190\ A basic CQB course takes a minimum of 2 months and advanced CQB training takes a minimum of 6 months. Moreover, CQB is the type of specialized training a terrorist or hostage rescue team such as the FBI Hostage Rescue Team would use. CQB is also a perishable skill requiring frequent/continuous training that ATF, as an agency, is not designed to maintain or utilize. Somewhat surprisingly, neither the documents from the Treasury investigation, nor the Treasury Report, itself, never refer to this request....

However, one military document furnished to the subcommittees as part of their document request specifically states that no written documentation is available on this extraordinary request by ATF for CQB training.\191\ This is the case despite ongoing discussions in 1992 and early 1993 within the senior ranks of the U.S. Army Special Operations Command regarding the prudence of making SOT \192\ /CQB training available to civilian law enforcement and foreign military personnel.\193\ These discussions are significant because they again foreshadow the potential use in civilian law enforcement of highly specialized military training, designed and intended for military operations.....

Freeper amom 2/1/00 "....Maj. Gen. Richard C. Marr is chief of staff, U.S. Joint Forces Command, Norfolk, Va. He is the principal adviser and assistant to the commander in chief and deputy commander in chief. Current as of December 1999 http://www.af.mil/news/biographies/marr_rc.html ...."

Freeper amom 2/1/00 ".... Friday, November 19, 1999 Special unit branded by shooting of teen marks 10 years By MICHELLE KOIDIN Associated Press Writer http://www.reporternews.com/1999/texas/unit1119.html "...JTF-6 was created by the Pentagon in 1989 after the White House declared drugs a national security threat. All along, civil rights advocates have objected, arguing that the unit erodes the 1878 Posse Comitatus act prohibiting the military from performing civilian law enforcement functions..."

Freeper amom 2/2/00 "....

Joint Task Force (JTF) 6 - FORSCOM activated JTF 6 at Ft. Bliss, TX, as a planning and coordinating headquarters to provide operational support from the DoD to federal, state, and local LEAs along the southwest border. JTF 6 coordinates with the NG of the four border states to ensure unity of effort. JTF 6 is a command and control (C2) headquarters only and has no operational units. JTF 6 is under the command of an Army Lieutenant General who reports to the JCS through FORSCOM. http://call.army.mil/call/newsltrs/91-4/914-iv.htm

As an aside...from the same page...
JTF 5 - USPACOM established JTF 5 in Alemeda, CA,
JTF 4 - USLANTCOM established JTF 4 in Key West, FL,

Freeper amom 2/2/00 "....Evidently it didn't stop at Mt. Carmel. May 20, 1997...The four camouflaged Marines were outfitted with state-of-the-art surveillance equipment and weapons. Esequiel carried an antique .22 caliber rifle - a pre-World War I, single shot rifle to keep wild dogs and rattlesnakes away from his goats. The autopsy showed that Esequiel was facing away from the Marines when he was shot. He probably never knew the Marines were watching him from 200 yards away.....Thus it was that a 22 year-old United States Marine shot and killed an innocent 18 year-old boy tending his family's goats www.mapinc.org/DPFT/hernandez/gallery/

Brief Chronology of Domestic Military Involvement
1878 -- The Posse Comitatus Act makes it illegal for the military to act as police on U.S. territory or waters.
1981 -- Posse Comitatus Act is amended to allow limited military involvement in policing.
1991 -- Posse Comitatus Act is amended to allow counter-drug training of civilian police by the military.
1995 -- Joint Task Force 6, under direction of the Defense Secretary, is expanded to the entire continental United States. It has 700 troops, including 125 combat-ready troops on the U.S.-Mexican border. (Houston Chronicle, 1997, June 22)
May 1997 -- Esequiel Hernandez becomes the first U.S. citizen shot and killed by JTF-6 troops. www.csdp.org/factbook/military.htm

Freeper Republic 2/2/00 "..... Amom-in your reply 166 you provide evidence that the formation of JTF-6 was to serve as a command center (a clearing house as it were for border issues with drugs in a four state area-later expanded to include all the states) but that it, JTF-6, had no, zero, zip, NADA operational units......Then in your reply 167, you note that there are 700 operational troops in the JTF-6 organization. Not to mention the civilian death of the young goat herder as a result of a sick miscalculation on the part of JTF-6 troops. Is JTF-6 possibly a para-military organization working as a separate group, permitted to fire on American civilians, unaffected by the posse comitatus act, and therefore bill clinton's choice of massacre weapon against the Davidians? ( Since JTF-6 seems to move without 'posse comitatus' {presidential signature} limitation? )...."

Freeper Alamo-Girl 2/2/00 "....This is just my opinion: It occurs to me that there may be Executive Orders or Presidential Directives that are sealed from public view due to national security which would allow military (JTF-6, OP-06D, Delta) involvement in civilian law enforcement under certain 'national emergency' scenarios, e.g. terrorism. And since drugs and terrorism seem to go hand-in-glove so often, and since the intelligence community is likely involved on both sides in counter-terrorism (at risk) I would not at all be surprised if there were not a long standing exemption to the Posse Comitatus. This theory of mine is somewhat supported in the following exchange in the Partisan interview:

McNULTY: .....The feedback that I'm getting right now from a lot of Special Forces operators is that they believe that Delta Force operates under an exemption to Posse Comitatus which allows them to act and react upon U.S. citizens.

GLASS: Who is giving them this exemption?

McNULTY: According to the sources that I've dealt with they claim that that exemption came as a presidential executive order. ....."

Freeper Republic 2/2/00 "....I understand that terrorism must carry an exemption-when to delay even long enough to acquire a signature might result in deaths or massive destruction. But how in the hell can the Davidian church members be considered terrorist threats? How can a Delta Force operation or an JTF-6 operation or any special forces operation, red cell whatever, all under military purview, operate against non-terrorist American civilians?...... Were the Davidians labeled terrorists? If so-what did they do to earn this label?...."

Freeper Alamo-Girl 2/2/00 ".... I do not know that the Davidians were ever labeled terrorists, but they were labeled as armed drug manufacturers (which goes hand-in-glove IMHO.) What I'm concerned about is the same thing that the Europeans were worried about with Echelon. A much needed, well intended and good mechanism with lots of power and autonomy can be corrupted or misused - especially from the top! ...."

Freeper amom "...There's little doubt that a CAG/Delta Force engineer demolition specialist could have rigged a SMAW round for hand firing [*command detonation*] from above straight downward into the room where the kids were,.... If the Delta operators had thought the Davidians possessed LAWS or other weaponry capable of taking out a Bradley, CEV or tank and didn't try to detonate them in their storage area prior to a final assault, I'd be very surprised.

Thank you so much for this. I had been stumped on how this piece of equipment fit in here.

perhaps being told only that he was taking out the Davidian armory, since the FBI had lied to the military about so many other aspects of the raid.

Yes it's very likely. I have to wonder what the odds are of this person coming forward. He/she must think about it at times.

Dallas Morning News 3/5/00 Lee Hancock "..... The discovery of a melted mass of bluish plastic among the evidence inventoried last November by the Rangers and investigators from Mr. Danforth's office fuels additional uncertainty about how the FBI deployed tear gas on April 19, an investigator said. The plastic is about the size and weight of one of the non-pyrotechnic ferret rounds used by the FBI. Those rounds have blue tips on milky white bodies, and the blob of plastic is an identical shade of blue, the investigator said. It was recovered from the bunker deep within the compound where many Branch Davidian women and children went for shelter from the gas attack and later died. If the plastic came from a ferret round, the investigator said, the device either had to be fired at relatively close range into the bunker or carried in by a Branch Davidian. The investigator called the second prospect unlikely because the ferret round would have been coated by the same CS powder that it had expelled on impact, and picking up anything contaminated with that powder would have would caused intense skin irritation. "It needs to be analyzed to see if the plastic matches the plastic used in manufacture of ferret rounds," the investigator said. The February report by the Texas Rangers noted that the one roll of DPS crime scene film that was not returned last fall by the FBI was a roll taken inside the bunker. "With the magnitude of what was pulled out of there, you'd expect maybe to see something like a bullet might turn up missing. But a big projectile? That's unusual," another investigator in Texas said. "A roll of film? That's weird. Remember that was taken where all the bodies were, inside the bunker. Who knows what it means, but having it come up missing? It doesn't make sense." ...."

St. Louis Post-Dispatch 3/2/00 William Freivogel and Terry Ganey "...... The Branch Davidians also cited Coulson's testimony in a legal filing on Thursday that blamed Rogers and Jamar for not having fire equipment standing by. The fire burned more than 30 minutes before fire fighting began. The Justice Department's 1993 report on Waco said Attorney General Janet Reno had not asked for fire trucks to be standing by because she was worried about an explosion, not a fire. But Michael Caddell, lawyer for the Branch Davidians, said Coulson testified that Reno had asked for all kinds of emergency vehicles. According to the record of an April 9, 1993, telephone call Jamar and Rogers made to FBI headquarters, the two decided, "There would be no plan to fight a fire should one develop in the Davidian compound." Jamar explained later that he would not have allowed fire vehicles near the complex any sooner than he did for fear of subjecting the fire fighters to Branch Davidian gunshots. But Caddell says the FBI could have obtained armored fire equipment. ......:

TECHNICAL ON THE EXPLOSION

Freeper Cato ".... I agree with you, a shaped charge would not neccessarily cut the rebar. The Army has had shaped charges explosives, or sachel charges, in their inventory since before WWII to blow holes in bunkers. The hot gasses generated are meant to cut through concrete reinforced with rebar. The gasses would be dissipated somewhat by the concrete before they got to the rebar and would bend it inward as the picture shows. It has always been my opinion, since I say the pictures of the hole and its fairly round shape and inward bending of the rebar, that the HRT used a shaped charge explosive, as in a sachel charge. Just my opinion on this, but I think I am pretty right on the money with this opinion....."

Freeper Ol'DanTucker ".... Gordon Novel said the 'hole' was caused by d-e-t-a-s-h-e-e-t. A military type explosive/shaped charge. He said that in 1996......" The bomb material, gentlemen and , at the hostage rescue team was, as you know as detasheet, d-e-t-a-s-h-e-e-t, which comes in olive drab waxed paper in 10 x 20 inch lengths and was put into a 20 inch camping container which we have all the photographs of and this is a PETN plastic explosive. So that just so happens that when you put that much detasheet inside of a 20" x 8" high container you'll get exactly that type of fireball and exactly that type of hole in the top of the vault so its about as good a evidence as you can possibly get. ....."

Freeper Red Jones ".... We've seen the photo of the concrete bunker with a big hole in the top of it. We've heard from the audio that there were two explosions. One of those explosions was the propane tank. One was something else. The APG moved up to that bunker and stayed briefly. This occurred of course after the APG physically destroyed the 45' x 45' gymnasium room nearby. .......Just a few feet from where the APG hovered the concrete bunker absorbed an explosion to cause that big ~30" diameter hole. We're talking about 4" reinforced concrete. Under the hole were approximately 8 bodies each torn in pieces and partially melted when investigators found them. That didn't happen except under horrific explosive force that pointed downward. However, when you look at the rest of the concrete at the top of the bunker you see the critical clues. There are no cracks throughout the top of the bunker, just this one round hole. When a propane tank explodes the force goes in all direction. Whatever this force was that blew a hole in the bunker was a very concentrated force that put tremendous force straight down, enough to shear through 4" reinforcec concrete and kill those people below as well while at the same time not enough force to crack concrete just a couple of feet to the side. A propane tank would always be set on a stand putting it 4" above the concrete, if that's where it was and there's doubt. It's force under explosion would go in all directions. It would likely not have enough force to shear through that concrete and if it did, then it would've cracked concrete further from the perimeter of the hole than this explosion did. ....... It is obvious simply from the photographic evidence that this was a shaped charge. All of these things can be tested by technicians and engineers. A bunker identical to the Waco bunker should be constructed. A propane tank identical to the Waco tank should be placed on top as it normally would sit. Then it should be detonated under the force of fire. A test would duplicate the nature of the damage seen in the photo if this damage were not done by a shaped charge. However, if the damage that results does not rival the 30" diameter hole we see in the photo, then we would have solid technical evidence of a shaped charge used by those US army personnel in their attack on civilians at Waco, TX in 1993....."

1/96 Expert Testimony Richard Sherrow "...Besides the SGA-400 Ferret cartridges, information from documents obtained from the FBI through the United States Department of justice indicates that military pyrotechnic munitions may have been fired into Mount Carmel. Documents disclosed indicate that agents could not penetrate either the underground shelter roof or the top of the rear four- story tower with Ferrets. Therefore, they fired at least one "military" round and referred to this munition as a "bubblehead." As a retired U.S. Army senior explosive ordnance disposal technician, I am unaware of the nomenclature and function of a "bubblehead" nor can I find any reference to such a munition in official military publications. However, I am familiar with a device known as a "bunker buster," which is a munition about the size of a softball and designed to penetrate fortifications. I recall that this munition was of foreign manufacture and filled with plasticized high explosive (HEP). It may have had other fillers, including chemical riot control agents. The exact identity of a "bubblehead" would have to be determined before any possible contribution to the fire could be established....... ...."

WACO: A NEW REVELATION 1/7/00 Jim Rarey "....By far the most sickening evidence disclosed, indicating premeditated murder, was the destruction of the "bunker" in which the younger children, infants and some women had taken refuge. The "bunker" was an old records storage vault of six to eight inch steel reinforced concrete. The physical evidence showed that a shaped high explosive charge had been detonated on top of the outside of the vault. Steel reinforcement bars were bent down and inward showing that the blast came from above. The explosion probably killed everyone in the vault. In the end, this may have been an unintentional act of mercy, since the victims in the vault were literally cremated as temperatures reached above 3,000 degrees in the ensuing fire. A Federal Fire Inspector testified to an affidavit he had read to the effect that the FBI went in on foot and planted the high explosive shaped charge. The explosion also ruptured a nearby propane tank causing a fireball effect....."

Mountain Media 1/23/2000 Vin Suprynowicz ".... The large hole in the roof of the concrete records vault where the women and children were sheltering -- the rebar bent downwards as though from an external blast -- has never been explained. Military explosives expert Brig. Gen. Benton Partin, USAF retired, says "What it tells me is that you had a demolition charge that went off on the roof." The FBI bulldozed the "bunker" to rubble. Six years later, in 1999, when Davidian attorneys were granted permission to recover the portion that might bear traces of the explosive used, that portion of the bunker ceiling was found to be missing. Gen. Partin concludes the rudimentary gunpowder possessed by the Branch Davidians would not have been capable of blowing that hole through six inches of reinforced concrete. Special Forces Sgt. Steven Barry reports the damage inside the records vault was "consistent with a shaped charge," as does retired USAF ordnance engineer Col. Jack Frost. "In military operations, it's standard procedure to do this," Barry explains, in order to reduce casualties among the attacking forces......"

Dallas Morning News 11/4/99 David Jackson Lee Hancock "....The film also alleges that government agents somehow set off an explosive device known as a "shape charge" on the top of a bunker deep inside the compound....... Government investigators discount the allegation, noting that a shape charge would have vaporized the iron bars clearly visible in photographs of the rooftop bunker hole. The film includes interviews with retired Air Force Gen. Ben Partin. He became known in militia circles for alleging that secret government agents triggered the Oklahoma City bombing with similar "shape charge" devices. Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols are already serving time for the bombing, which resulted in 168 deaths......"

Penthouse 12/99 Ellis Henican "..... The evidence of the hole in the roof of the bunker and the effects that the shape-charge detonated on the roof of that bunker in the early stages of the fire had on the interior of the bunker and the human beings inside. That shape-charge device is a signature of a particular military unit that's known for its ability to breach such locations as bunkers. There is evidence-there is compelling evidence-that shows [people from this unit were] there. And in action. In forward-looking infrared videotape. In real-time video. In still photos and documents. And testimony from individuals.

New York Times 9/14/99 David Johnston Neil Lewis "..One document found in the Justice Department's files that was sent to the committee in 1995 is an interview report of an F.B.I. agent dated June 6, 1993. In it the agent, Wayne Smith, recalled hearing a conversation about "some sort of military round" being used. The second document was a summary of testimony of members of the Hostage Rescue Team, the F.B.I. unit that carried out the tear-gas assault. The summary said that there had been an "attempt to penetrate bunker w/1 military round and two ferret rounds. Military round was grey bubblehead w/green base." The third document was comprised of undated, handwritten notes that appear to have been taken close to the date of the assault. It said, "smoke from bunker came when these guys tried to shoot gas into bunker (military gas round)." ."

Freeper RangerX 1/27/00 "... I'm looking at my demolitions cheat card from the Army. Based on what I'm finding on that, it definitely was not a shaped charge. A standard M3 40-pound shaped charge would only have opened up a hole about 3-1/2 inch in diameter. A M2A3 15-pound shaped charge would open a hole 2-3/4 inch in diameter. A breaching charge is more likely. To open up a 36 inch hole in a 1 foot thick reinforced concrete wall (or ceiling) using an untamped breaching charge, you would need 10.7 pounds of TNT, or exactly 8 pounds of C4. If you only had a six or eight inch ceiling, the amount would probably be half. It's questionable whether the lesser charge would actually cut the steel rebar or simply bend it away from the blast. I doubt that a propane explosion could produce the same results....."

Freeper RangerX 1/27/00 ".... I'm referring mainly to what would be required to breach a reinforced concrete wall using standard 1-1/4 pound blocks of C4. Detasheet may be made of the same explosive as C4, or of some other type of similar plastic explosive. My experience with breaching charges tends to use blocks of C4 or TNT which are taped together in a bundle, rather than laying a sheet. We tended to mold C4 into sheets only when we were trying to cut steel, like I-beams or railroad tracks. I've heard of using molded C4 to try to knock doors off their hinges, such as the HRT or Delta folks do, but I think I'd rather use Detonating Cord to do that. WRT a bubblehead, I've never heard of it. I believe there is a shoulder-launched breaching charge which may have been fielded with the military, but I'd have to go check some sources....."

Freeper RangerX 1/27/00 "....A shaped charge is basically a chemical drill. It drills a narrow hole through very thick armor or other material. Not that I'm suggesting that you try this at home, but if you fill a champagne bottle, which has the cone shaped hollow bottom, with explosive and place it on a very thick piece of steel, and then detonate it, it will drill a 1 inch hole through about a foot of steel. It's pretty cool. But it doesn't create a hole the size of the one at Waco. The cone shape focuses the explosive effect into a superheated jet of flame, which just melts its way through the steel, or anything else. It's the same technology used on high explosive antitank projectiles and missiles. Drill a very small hole with a superheated jet of flame, and cook everything inside the tank. ....... The more likely explanation, if the explosion was deliberately set, is that a breaching or cratering charge was placed. 4 pounds of C4 plastic explosive would probably have done the job. This would have shattered the concrete at the detonation location, sending concrete fragments on the other side of the ceiling downward at hypersonic speeds. This is called spall effect. Even if the explosive didn't penetrate, it is likely that concrete fragments would spall from the interior of the ceiling, basically shredding any people inside. Sure would have been interesting to see if any of the bodies had concrete fragments in them......"

Freeper RangerX 1/27/00 "...4 pounds of C4 would probably measure about 7 inches long, and 3 inches square, if you taped 4 blocks together. It would actually be 5 pounds, since the military version comes in 1-1/4 pound blocks. A satchel charge is a breaching charge for all intents and purposes. Just a little bag with a bunch of high explosive, like C4 or TNT, taped together inside, hooked up to time fuze and a fuze ignitor...."

Caltech Explosion Dynamics Laboratory Background

MISCELLANEOUS NAVAL-ARMOR-RELATED FORMULAE(c)

FAS - Chapter 13 Warheads

Commercial High Explosives

Detasheet (DuPont) is a flexible high explosive developed by DuPont. Sheet explosives have both military and commercial applications. It is composed of integral mixture of PETN and a binder. This explosive is flexible over a wide range of temperatures It is waterproof and available in a variety of extruded shapes and in sheets and cords.

Detasheet
Detasheet "A", the commercial form is 85% PETN is red and detonator sensitive.

Flex-X
Flex-X, (Detasheet "B") is the military variety and is colored OD green for identification and contains 63% PETN. However, it should be noted that some manufacturers will use RDX as the explosive material.

Use:
Sheet explosives are designed for use as a cutting, breaching, or cratering charge, and especially for use against steel targets. The sheets of explosives may be quickly applied to irregular and curved surfaces, and are easily cut to any desired dimension.

C4:

During World War II, the British used a plastic demolition explosive that could be shaped by hand and had great shattering power. As standardized by the US, it was designated as composition C and contained 88.3 percent RDX and 11.7 of a nonexplosive oily plasticizer.

Composition C was replaced by C-2, which contained 80 percent RDX and 20 percent explosive plasticizer. This explosive plasticizer was composed of mononitrotoluene.

C-2 was replaced by C-3, which contains 77% (+/- 2%) RDX and 23% (+/- 2%) explosive plasticizer.

C-3 has been replaced by C-4 because of its hardening, volatility, and its hygroscopicity. C-4 contains, RDX, Polyisobutylene, Motor Oil, and Di (2-ethylhexyl) sebacate.

Uses: M5A1 Block Demolition Charge as well as other charges (see below)

Properties: Non-odorous white to light brown, putty-like material.

VOD: 26,377 ft/sec.

3. M112 Demolition Block

Block demolition charge M112 is plastic explosive. This charge is ideally suited for cutting charges, as the adhesive backing allows the charge to be attached to any relatively flat, dry surface above freezing (32 degrees F.) The explosive may also be cut and/or removed from the mylar wrapper and hand formed as desired to suit the target.

Uses: Cutting charge.

Explosive: Composition C4

Packaging
Gray or OD with yellow markings
1 1/4 pound block
Mylar film used for covering.
Adhesive backing

Freeper RangerX 1/27/00 "....Here is the shoulder-fired breaching charge I was talking about. Since the current status of the program is EMD (Engineering and Manufacturing Development), I doubt it was in use in Waco, unless somebody had access to the initial prototypes, which has been known to happen, especially if you belong to a Ranger or SF outfit. My unit got access to the first six laser target designators that came off the production line during EMD. We needed 'em.

Program Title
Multi-Purpose Individual Munition/Short Range Assault Weapon (MPIM/SRAW)
Current Phase ACAT Program Management EMD III DSA, AMCOM
Description
The MPIM/SRAW is a one-man light weight, shoulder fired, fire and forget, multiple purpose munition capable of defeating enemy forces in buildings, reinforced structures, bunkers and future light weight armored vehicles. The MPIM/SRAW consists of a disposable launcher/carry case equipped with a 2.5X telescopic sight that is compatible with current and future night vision devices. The shoulder launched missile consists of a two state, soft launch propulsion system with inertial guidance and an explosively formed penetrator with follow-through grenade warhead. The missile is capable of being fired quickly from its carrying configuration and safely fired from enclosures. Joint effort with USMC.

Picture

Freeper WidowsSon 1/28/00 ".....I am assuming that the term "bubblehead" is a slang term for a weapon that is used for "bunker busting". I don't know if it is what they are referring to or not, but I know of a weapon that could certainly be called this. I have a picture of one somewhere, it probably wasn't what caused the hole in the top of the bunker. It is a round rifle grenade type weapon fired from an M-16 type rifle. As I recall it is about the size of a cantelope. I have an article about it somewhere and it gives the specifics (ie- penetration, range, uses). I will see if I can locate it. If any Freepers subscribed or have any back issues of "International Combat Arms" it was in one of their issues....."

Freeper Alamo-Girl 1/28/00 ".... The location of the propane tank that ruptured, outside and on the ground, when compared to the location of the hole in the roof - makes me wonder if a shaped charge blew the hole downward (without horizontally damaging the rest of the roof) and had some backfire-type reaction that threw debris up, which would come back down from gravity, violently rupturing the tank and causing the huge fireball??? ...."

Freeper Alamo-Girl 1/28/00 "..... Also, one of the research links above, probably the Naval formula one, shows several factors involved in calculating damage (penetration) so the reporter saying roughly 'that because the rods were bent and not vaporized it couldn't have been a shaped charge' sounds like disinformation to me... "

Freeper Red Jones 1/28/00 "..... I've read that the bunker was 6-8 inches of reinforced concrete at the top. I've also viewed the second McNulty video that has a very good picture of the hole. Engineers can re-create a similar structure or elevated slab and test to re-create the same effect to determine what type of an explosive caused this. I've maintained that simply from the photographic evidence these engineers can prove that this was a very special explosion.

In a normal explosion the force goes in all directions. This means that you'll see cracking and other surface damage on the top of the concrete slab even several feet out from the hole and in all directions. We'd see the diameter of the blown away hole at the top of the hole be wider than the diameter of the blown away hole at the bottom of the hole. In other words you'd look at the hole and the concrete would slope inwards towards the center of the hole as the hole goes downwards. That's what we'd see in a normal explosion. As I understand these shaped charges the force of the explosion goes entirely in one direction. This would create an entirely different failure mode in the concrete. Look at the photos. The hole is very clean at the top one inch of the hole. It is almost as clean as if cut by a saw in the first inch. There is very little cracking and concrete damage outside of that hole on the top surface of the slab. That is also not normal. The hole goes down very perpendicular to the concrete slab's surface for about one inch. Then it does something even more strange. It goes outwards. That is shown in the video clearly. The diameter of the hole at the bottom of the hole is much bigger than the diameter of the hole at the top of the hole. It goes straight down for one inch and then out at about a 30 degree angle from the surface. In other words after the first inch downwards the diameter of the hole gets wider rapidly as the hole goes down. That is extremely strange.

I maintain that this is a very strange explosion. Whatever trick they have for making the explosion go straight down worked fine for the first inch downwards and then the forces behaved like normal, they went in all directions.

Someone who cares about America should spend a lot of money to build similar slabs, then they should test it with different types of explosions, they should try to duplicate this failure mode. Then we must also remember that the bodies below were burned badly, partly melted and blown to bits also as a result of this explosion. I'll bet that the only thing that will cause this type of a failure is a very advanced military device. There are labs and engineers that do this type of testing on many materials and building assemblies every day. Their conclusions are normally good enough to be presented as evidence in court....."

Email to Alamo-Girl, source anonymous 1/28/2000 "It was detasheet."

Email to Alamo-Girl, source anonymous 1/27/2000 "...The basic discussion of shaped charges and their affects are correct. But the forum doesn't have all of the information they need. Your basic shaped charge focuses the explosive effect into a jet of extremely hot and fast moving gas that produces most of the effect. It is also a fairly fragile device. While I was still on active duty I was shown a variation of the shaped charge that could, repeat COULD, have caused the damage at Waco. The lecturer called the new device a "cookie cutter" because it cut a nearly circular hole through almost anything. This included steel, concrete, reinforced concrete, armor plate, etc... The "cookie cutter" started with a disc of copper. On the side facing away from the target surface was a layer of neoprene - the stuff they make skin diver wet suits of. On the exposed side of the neoprene was a layer of plastic explosive. When fired the neoprene absorbs most of the shockwave effect allowing the copper disc to be accelerated to something approaching the burning speed of the explosive (3,000 feet per second, or more ?). The "cookie cutter" becomes a self-forming warhead that impacts its target at extremely high speeds. The "cookie cutter" is only effective as a stand off weapon - there needs to be space between the copper disc and the target surface so maximum penetration affect can be achieved. At one time the basic information on the "cookie cutter" appeared in the JMEMS....."

Freeper amom 1/29/00 "....RE: Bubblehead. The first mention I see of the term 'bubblehead' is from Sherrow...in his fire report of Jan '96. I would be curious to know what document he got the term from. I know it was an FBI document but....could it have been handwritten and difficult to read or mistranscribed? Or? ...."

Freeper Ian Goddard 1/29/00 "....Notice that in the following photo, the ceiling beam appears to be bowed downward with the low point exactly in-line with the hole, slightly visible at the top of the photo. Or is the beam just oddly shaped?

Also note that there's a discoloration on the ceiling beam roughly in-line with the hole, perhaps suggesting the possibility of deposited explosives residue along the path of an incoming blast. I wish we could see more of the ceiling.

GODDARD'S JOURNAL

Freeper sauropod 1/31/00 ".... In WANR, there is a retired Combat Applications Group guy (MAJ) who stated that the charge used was a shaped charge. I concur with your assessment that it could not have been, based on the size of the hole, etc. A shaped charge which would have made that size hole would also have cut the rebar. That MAJ should have known better. Thanks for the info re the CEV. I thought when i saw WTROE the first time that there were M60s in action at Mt. Carmel. They were the CEVs. The turret and the underbelly are very distinctive. Thanks for helping to clear up a nagging point for me...."

Freeper RangerX 1/31/00 ".... I know what the Major said. He was wrong. Based on the beam deflection in that picture, I'm even more convinced that some sort of breaching charge was used. Shaped charge would not deflect the beam. Also, the outward beveling of the hole (smaller diameter on top than bottom)would be indicative of an external massive charge, rather than shaped charge. Interesting tidbit. Of the 3 major types of armor at Waco, guess which is the only one with a belly access hatch? The CEV. The Bradley and M1 don't have belly hatches. ...."

Freeper coloradan 1/31/00 "...A non-sinister interpretation of the sagging beam is that the heat of the fire weakened the reinforcement, so it slumped. That said, I do not doubt the hole was caused by a your-tax-money-at-work bomb....."

Freeper sauropod "..... Is the beam you refer to the thick rectangular one which is bowed downward on the ceiling? If so, we concur. Also, in WANR, there was a reference to blast overpressure existing in the room. There was a long crack running down a building wall, which was said to be evidence of blast overpressure in the "bunker", as was the condition of the corpses (twisted around, etc.). Can a small shaped charge (of the type which can create a 3 or 4 inch hole from the penetrator) cause a blast overpressure condition to exist? [gross ignorance here]. My gut tells me no..... "Interesting tidbit. Of the 3 major types of armor at Waco, guess which is the only one with a belly access hatch? The CEV. The Bradley and M1 don't have belly hatches." I know the BFV does not. Wasn't aware that the M1 did not either. BTW, another Waco researcher here at FR maintains that there was M1s in action at Mt. Carmel. All the footage i have seen is of the BFVs and CEVs, not M1s. What is your opinion? .... Also, isn't it considerably more expensive to run an M1 around moving busses and trees and whatnot vs a BFV which could do the same thing? ...."

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "..... It seems to me that the "ruptured" propane tank shown in WANR is the same one described by the survivors. I take the survivors accounts and other info to indicate that the rupture of the propane tank started the fire behind the dining room around 11:59 or earlier when the tank drove through the building. The large fireball didn't occur until some 10-15 minutes later at 12:20-12:25, which would tend to rule out this propane tank being the cause of the fireball. From my experience, liquid propane just doesn't hang around this long once exposed to the atmosphere, it boils away. WANR shows a brief flash, then the fireball developing within 1-2 seconds. The aerial shot of the fireball shows that the building was already engulfed in fire when this occurred. IMO, this is a major contradiction to the "ruptured" propane tank being the cause of the fireball......"

".....Also, in WANR, there was a reference to blast overpressure existing in the room. There was a long crack running down a building wall, which was said to be evidence of blast overpressure in the "bunker", as was the condition of the corpses (twisted around, etc.). Here you go. This ought to help the discussion.

Notice the chunk taken out of the corner. According to different sources, a CEV plowed through the building and into the side of this structure. From the aerial shots, this appears to be either the back of the structure. (The large box at the foot of the ladder) Or it could be the side opposite the "ruptured" propane tank. The front and other side (by the "ruptured" propane tank) had large, dark scortched areas on the walls that don't appear in this picture.

More on the bubblehead: http://www.ausa.org//armyzine/green4.html
"...The XM141 Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon-Disposable (SMAW-D) bunker defeat munition has been procured in limited quantities pending completion of MPIM/SRAW development. (See MPIM/SRAW entry.)

The munition is an 83-mm rocket that can be employed against bunkers, reinforced structures and light armored vehicles. It can be set to detonate on impact or with a delayed fuze for attacking soft targets. It has an effective range of approximately 250 meters and weighs approximately 16 pounds.

As of this writing, the Army has received approximately 5,500 out of a projected limited procurement of 6,000 SMAW-D munitions...."

Freeper amom "...http://www.indirect.com/www/lawsys/smahmpg.htmlSMAW-D
Weapon System The Ultimate Shoulder-fired Assault Weapon....
SMAW-D is a disposable, fire-and-forget, shoulder-fired multipurpose assault weapon designed to destroy bunkers, breech walls, and kill infantry fighting vehicles at close combat ranges. SMAW-Ds lightweight and compact sizes make it ideal for use by early entry airborne, air assault, and special operation forces.
There's two photos at this site you might want to take a look at. and the above page has a link to this page. http://www.pica.army.mil/picatinny/
the Picatinny Arsenal web site. Here for a photo of what the "SMAW-D Weapon System The Ultimate Shoulder-fired Assault Weapon...." can do.

Freeper Alamo-Girl ".... The information from RangerX about the shoulder fired munitions (MPIM/SRAW) looks very prophetic now that we can see it is called a "bubblehead." That was the munition mentioned by the expert witness (emphasis mine:)

1/96 Expert Testimony Richard Sherrow "...Besides the SGA-400 Ferret cartridges, information from documents obtained from the FBI through the United States Department of justice indicates that military pyrotechnic munitions may have been fired into Mount Carmel. Documents disclosed indicate that agents could not penetrate either the underground shelter roof or the top of the rear four- story tower with Ferrets. Therefore, they fired at least one "military" round and referred to this munition as a "bubblehead." As a retired U.S. Army senior explosive ordnance disposal technician, I am unaware of the nomenclature and function of a "bubblehead" nor can I find any reference to such a munition in official military publications. However, I am familiar with a device known as a "bunker buster," which is a munition about the size of a softball and designed to penetrate fortifications. I recall that this munition was of foreign manufacture and filled with plasticized high explosive (HEP). It may have had other fillers, including chemical riot control agents. The exact identity of a "bubblehead" would have to be determined before any possible contribution to the fire could be established..........."

Freeper amom "....Picatinny Arsenal, N.J.
http://dtics14.dtic.mil/soldiers/may1999/news/index.html

Bunker Buster Fielded
LIGHT fighters can now look forward to busting bunkers with a weapon specifically designed for that purpose, thanks to the fielding of the new 83mm XM-141 Bunker Defeat Munition by the U.S. Army Armament Research, Development and Engineering Center at Picatinny Arsenal, N.J.

Designed primarily to defeat bunkers, the weapon is also highly effective against triple-brick and concrete block walls and armor.

Until now light infantry, dismounted infantry and engineers engaged such targets using hand-placed satchel charges or Light Anti-armor Weapons, whose warheads were never designed for tackling bunkers.

Since the BDM is a "disposable" munition, no dedicated gunner or maintenance is required. The BDM weighs 15.7 pounds, is 32 inches long in its carrying mode and has an effective range of 15 to 500 meters. It can be air-dropped on a pallet or by an individual and can mount a variety of night sights.

The weapon is an offshoot of the Marines' Shoulder-launched, Multi-purpose Assault Weapon, which is a dedicated weapon system in their infantry squads. The BDM is essentially a SMAW-Disposable or SMAW-D. The SMAW, with a round loaded for firing, weighs 29 pounds compared to the BDM's total weight of 15.7 pounds.

Due to funding shortfalls, only a limited number of rounds are available. They are stored on pallets, with training materials, and are available to contingency forces.

Freeper archy ".... Since the US Army, and thereby the Combat Applications Group/Delta Force got their SMAW weapons from the Marines, I thought the Marine equipment listing from http://www.usmc.mil would be of interest, and lo and behold, I found an interesting term that could be the source of the *bubblehead* moniker; note the section I put in italics and bold script: Note that SMAW, as fielded, is a direct fire weapon, like a rifle or the old bazooka, firing generally horizontally at a target like a tank or enemy bunker. Accordingly, it's unlikely that a SMAW round fired from a launcher made that hole in the concrete penetrating downward, which apperared to have come from above, like a mortar round might have.

But the old 3.5-inch M20 bazooka rocket was electrically fired, and was often set up as a mine or boobytrap to be fired at a tank's belly armour where it's thinnest, frpom underneath, as a mine or demolition charge. There's little doubt that a CAG/Delta Force engineer demolition specialist could have rigged a SMAW round for hand firing [*command detonation*] from above straight downward into the room where the kids were, perhaps being told only that he was taking out the Davidian armory, since the FBI had lied to the military about so many other aspects of the raid.

If the Delta operators had thought the Davidians possessed LAWS or other weaponry capable of taking out a Bradley, CEV or tank and didn't try to detonate them in their storage area prior to a final assault, I'd be very surprised.

The Germans used silmilar fixed shaped charge devices when they took out the Belgian defensive bunkers at Eban-Emmal, in Belgium, during the early days of WW2. And the difference between the use of a SMAW HEDP [High Explosive, Dual Purpose]warhead and a HEAA [High Explosive AntiArmour] warhead in such a charge, which could have been rigged in something like an ice cooler both for convenience sake [carrying handles] and protection from shock and thermal disturbance of its firing mechanism from any nearby flames, might account for the less than desired result. That would also leave sufficient room for a radio detonation receiver so that it could be emplaced, then later fired when required. A nice, inconspicuous green cooler wouldn't look nearly so out of place as a Olive Drab cannister with wires and antennae hanging from it.



Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon (SMAW)

Primary function: Portable anti-armor rocket launcher.

Length:
To Carry: 29.9 inches (75.95 centimeters)
Ready-to-Fire: 54 inches (137.16 cm)
Weight:
To Carry: 16.6 pounds (7.54 kg)
Ready-to-Fire (HEDP): 29.5 pounds (13.39 kg)
Ready-to-Fire (HEAA): 30.5 pounds (13.85 kg)
Bore diameter: 83mm
Maximum effective range:
1 x 2 Meter Target: 250 meters
Tank-Sized Target: 500 meters
Introduction date: 1984
Unit Replacement Cost: $13,000

Mission: To destroy bunkers and other fortifications during assault operations as well as other designated targets with the dual mode rocket and to destroy main battle tanks with the HEAA rocket.

Features: The SMAW is an 83mm man-portable weapon system consisting of the MK153 Mod 0 launcher, the MK 3 Mod 0 encased HEDP rocket, the MK 6 Mod 0 encased HEAA rocket, and the MK217 Mod 0 spotting rifle cartridge. The launcher consists of a fiberglass launch tube, a 9mm spotting rifle, an electro-mechanical firing mechanism, open battle sights, and a mount for the MK42 Mod 0 optical and AN/PVS-4 night sights. The High Explosive, Dual Purpose (HEDP) rocket is effective against bunkers, masonry and concrete walls, and light armor. The High Explosive Anti-Armor (HEAA) rocket is effective against current tanks without additional armor. The 9mm spotting rounds are ballistically matched to the rockets and increase the gunner's first round hit probability. Training is accomplished with the MK7 Mod 0 encased common practice rocket and the MK213 Mod 0 noise cartridge.

The SMAW MK153 Mod 0 launcher is based on the Israeli B-300 and consists of the launch tube, the spotting rifle, the firing mechanism, and mounting brackets. The launch tube is fiberglass/epoxy with a gel coat on the bore. The spotting rifle is a British design and is mounted on the right side of the launch tube. The firing mechanism mechanically fires the spotting rifle and uses a magneto to fire the rocket. The mounting brackets connect the components and provide the means for boresighting the weapon. The encased rockets are loaded at the rear of the launcher. The spotting cartridges are stored in a magazine in the cap of the encased rocket.

Inventory: 1364



Background: The SMAW system (launcher, ammunition and logistics support) was fielded in 1984 as a Marine Corps unique system. At that time, the SMAW included the MK153 Mod 0 launcher, the MK3 Mod 0 HEDP encased rocket, the MK4 Mod 0 practice rocket and the MK217 Mod 0 9mm spotting cartridge. The MK6 Mod 0 encased HEAA rocket is being added to the inventory. The MOD 0 has demonstrated several shortcomings. A series of modifications is currently planned to address the deficiencies. They include a resleeving process for bubbled launch tubes, rewriting/drafting operator and technical manuals, a kit that will reduce environmental intrusion into the trigger mechanism, and an optical sight modification to allow the new HEAA rocket to be used effectively against moving armor targets. Recently fielded were new boresight bracket kits that, when installed, will solve the loss of boresight problem between launch tube and spotting rifle. During Desert Storm, 150 launchers and 5,000 rockets were provided to the U.S. Army. Since then, the Army has shown increased interest in the system.

From USMC weapons/equipment factfile- see:

http://www.hqmc.usmc.mil/factfile.nsf/7e931335d515626a8525628100676e0c/57c7ea3d1a309a1d8525628100779b0c?OpenDocument Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "....Basically, the 40mm HE (High Explosive) is used for anti-personnel (people) and to punch holes in either steel armorplate or concrete gun enplacements (bunkers). The 40mm CS is used to disperse gas and is used (supposed to be used?) in the open to break up riots, etc.

http://mcdweb.pica.army.mil/demolitions/TDFD.html
http://mcdweb.pica.army.mil/sofdemo.html
http://mcdweb.pica.army.mil/PAM.html

My anonymous source says the technology is not new, that it has been used in the Army's Remote Antiarmor Artillery Mine for at least 20 years. The TDFD is a neat way to set it off remotely....

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "...

---

SOF MISSION The SOF Demo Kit will provide a capability for the Special Operations Forces to tailor charges to the target by hand packing C4 into a variety of inert conical and linear shapes and explosivley formed penetrators. The SOF Demo Kit will be utilized throughout the spectrum of the Special Operations Forces operational continuum from Humanitarian Assistance and Peacekeeping, through Counter terrorism and Counterinsurgency, to low intensity conflict and full scale war. REQUIREMENTS Explosively Formed Penetrators Metallic-Small 1.0" RHA @50' Metallic-Medium 2.5" RHA @ 50' Concrete-Large 8.0" Wall @ 50' Concrete-Extra Large 24" Column @ 50' Shaped Cone Charges Metallic-Small 1" RHA Metallic-Medium 2" RHA Metallic-Large 4" RHA Shaped Linear Charges Metallic-Extra Small .25" RHA Metallic-Small .75" RHA Metallic-Medium 1.5" RHA Metallic- Large 3.0 RHA

PAM MISSION Provide non-nuclear capability, within greater explosive effectiveness per volume than current military explosives, to create obstacles out of bridges in the enemy's rear area. VISION: Although designed primarily for reinforced concrete targets, PAM has applications for a wide array of missions, especially those where tamping of the explosive will enhance performance. PAM allows the user to place a substantial amount of explosive deep within reinforced concrete, earth, sand, or other targets to multiply explosive effects. REQUIREMENTS Physical Characteristics Weight -35 lbs Size Length -33 in Diameter -8 in Target Large reinforced concrete structures Attachment Sound supressed stud driver Initiation Blasting cap, detonation cord, or any standard military detonation device Performance Single-shot defeat of 5ft X 6ft reinforced concrete structure System Advantages Replaces 225 lbs of explosives with 35 lbs Decreases volume from 4,500 cu. in. to 400 cu. in Reduces mission time from 3+ manhours to 2 manminutes Requires only one person to defeat each target vs. seven people using conventional explosives

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "....After I posted this info and studied the SOF demo kit A-GIF for a while, it occurred to me what happened. I think Carol Valentine is right.

The idea was to use the SOF demo charge to cut the support beam on the underside of the ceiling to effect the collapse of the roof mentioned in the autopsy reports. That's why there's a 24-inch hole in the roof. Only a charge this size would have been able to cut through the beam in one shot. But, as Valentine surmised, they screwed up. How? They put the charge in the wrong place and it missed the support beam and only punched the hole instead. (call it bad intel) By the time they noticed it, (after the building had burned to the ground) it was too late to change. So the feds officially ignored the hole and went ahead with plan Alpha --"the roof collapsed, killing everyone inside".

The SOF demo charge was aimed down toward the ceiling and the flash seen through the window is the back-blast as seen in the SOF demo kit A-GIF. The large fireball that ignited a split-second later was just so much window-dressing and had nothing to do with the deaths of the people nor the destruction of the pantry. It didn't make sense until I saw the SOF demo kit, then everything fell into place.

FWIW, I'm looking through my video archive to see if I can locate images taken at a local airshow during a military assault demonstration that includes a jet-fuel explosion.

Freeper Ian Goddard ".... Great stuff Dan! I can't tell you how impressed I am with this spontaneous public inquiry, thanks to everyone involved! This is exactly what fascist regimes are created to stop and exactly what the Internet can facilitate.

From the PAM animation above, we can see that an extremely powerful anti-bunker charge bent rebar and caused only one fracture:

This extremely powerful charge did not "take out" the rebar. And contrary to what one might assume, the thinner rebar at Waco could reduce the tendency to be broken, since thinner rebar still bends like metal, but with a more-narrow curved surface it increases the tendency of forces to "roll" around and past. The rebar above also appears to have a rougher surface than the Waco rebar, which could provide the minute flat surface areas an explosive force would need to strike and push against in order to initiate a fracture.

General Partin explained to me that some forces powerful enough to pulverize concrete will only bend (not break) steel, since concrete is brittle and without plasticity (the ability to bend with a force). The same physical principle allows ultrasonic vibrations to pulverize kidney stones while leaving surrounding tissues with plasticity undamaged.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "....Yeah-you mentioned earlier paying particular attention to the SOF demolition example. It does seem spectacularly close to what we are discussing about the bunker roof-except the SOF example does not seem to be reinforced concrete.

Even though the example shown in the SOF A-GIF isn't reinforced concrete, the specs for this do indicate that it can be used for concrete. All concrete has to be reinforced with steel. As Ian pointed out, concrete is structurally too brittle on it's own without steel reinforcement. Also, the PAM is only available in 8" diameters. Since the hole in the roof is about 24", this seems to be a closer match to the 24" SOF demo kit. So close, in fact, that I'm convinced that this is what was used.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker ".... Let me clarify what I meant to say. What I meant was that the condition of the rebar in the PAM A-GIF is eerily similar to the condition of the rebar seen in the hole in the roof of the pantry.

Both use the copper disc technology, but the PAM is only available in 8" diameters and it must be surface-mounted. (suppressed stud driver --Wow!!) The SOF demo kit for concrete (extra large) is 24" diameter, which almost exactly matches the size of the hole in the pantry roof, so the SOF demo kit, or something similar to it, seems to be the type of demo charge used.

Freeper amom "...I found it interesting that the PAM system advantages include the information
35 lbs
mission time 2 manminutes
requires only one person.
I wonder if the same holds true for the SOF. Compact, portable, limited personel needed. And the hole shown made by the SOF is very very similar. ....I agree it helps to see it visually. Quite some impact.

Freeper amom "....Did you happen to notice any range on the TDFD? I haven't. I agree the SOF looks like the likely suspect. It sure would be nice if we had the Supply Officer's records....ahhhh...well....one can dream.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker ".... The SOF looks to be even quicker to set up because it doesn't need to be mounted to the surface as does the PAM. It looks to be as portable as the average video camera.....The TDFD page didn't mention any ranges, but modern munitions are quite versatile. Check out TLC (or the Discovery Channel's) Blastmasters show when it is re-broadcast sometime, particularly the episode on mining and you'll see what I mean......In any event, the TDFD is really nothing more than a time-delayed detonation device that can be set anywhere up to a 30 day delay in one minute increments....I'm tempted to re-post the pics of the military personnel from Linda Thompson's Waco II: The Big Lie Continues. A lot of what can be seen in them is starting to make a lot more sense.

Freeper amom ".....The demo at the SOF link was very slow the first few times it ran through on my computer....I was impressed at how the thrust of the force goes straight for such a distance before it appears to begin to disperse. Amazing technology.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "....

Federal Forces On the Ground Around the Building

Federal Forces At Waco

Freeper amom ".....While we're here...Ian mentions this RAMS device on his new thread. Here's some of the data from the Army's page. Note the ORD APPROVAL date is Mar '94.

http://mcdweb.pica.army.mil/demolitions/rams.html#MILESTONES
MISSION
The Remote Activation Munitions System (RAMS) provides a capability to remotely control demolition charges or remotely operate other equipment. RAMS will be utilized throughout the range of Special Operations Forces operations from Humanitarian Assistance to Counter-Insurgency to Low Intensity Conflict and Full Scale War.
VISION:
Provide the user an effective, safe, affordable and high quality multi-use system to perform a wide variety of required missions.

REQUIREMENTS
Transmitter Weight 2 lbs
Transmitter Volume 28 Cubic in
Receiver Weight 0.75 lbs
Reciver Volume 20 Cubic in
System Temp Range -25F to +135F
System Range Greater than 5 Km
Receiver Output
- Type A Fires Multiple M-6 Electric Caps
- Type B Fires a Comp A5 Secondary Booster Cap or a M7 Non-Electric Cap
- Type C Push/Pull 10 lbs
Transportable to 66 ft of seawater, bare
MILESTONES
ORD APPROVAL Mar 94
MILESTONE I/II Nov 94
MILESTONE III Sep 97
FUE Jun 99

Freeper amom "....Dan, thanks for the links to the photos. I find the ones of the people leaving the burning building most interesting.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "....Me too. I find the 5 guys in berets even more interesting. How many Special Forces are said to have been there on the last day? Three? Hmmm...

Freeper sauropod "....An MS I/II of 1994 would indicate to me that a tech demonstrator or a brassboard of the RAMS would have been all that is available in April of '93.

Freeper Republic "....Following your link called the 'Federal Forces at WACO', there is a photo of a man with a subtitle 'donning a hard back pack' - Do you happen to have or know if a time is printed for this photo (ie when was it taken in relation to the fireball)? Some of the SOF descriptions as well as the PAM (penetrating augmented munitions) state that they are of a weight and size that would fit into a backpack. Makes ya curious, no? Ya just wonder if we are seeing the bomb being readied for transport to the bunker. Also-are there ANY photos of military or anyone on TOP of the bldgs before the fire and are there any photos of helicopters lowering cargo onto the bldgs. before the fireball? Do ya know?

Freeper Alamo-Girl "....Thank you so much for the additional information on the RAMS!!! And I agree about the significance of the breaching explosion force. Notice, too, how it results in a larger diameter on one side than the other - and the lack of damage on the horizontal surface ... akin to the characteristics of the roof damage on the bunker....."

Freeper rangerx "....I don't know who did the armored vehicle identification on those two picture sites for Linda Thompson, but they missed the boat. Just about everywhere that they say it is a CEV in the picture, they are really looking at a Bradley. There is one picture they claim to be a CEV that might be right but it's so bad that all you can make out are the roadwheels and the boom. It could also be an M88 tank retriever.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker ".....I don't know who did the armored vehicle identification on those two picture sites for Linda Thompson, but they missed the boat. Just about everywhere that they say it is a CEV in the picture, they are really looking at a Bradley. There is one picture they claim to be a CEV that might be right but it's so bad that all you can make out are the roadwheels and the boom. It could also be an M88 tank retriever. The guy left standing on the dock would be me. I don't think LT identified them one way or the other. I noticed it last night when I reviewed the page prior to posting, but wasn't sure of whether they really were Bradleys, M-60s or something else. Blame it on my lack of Army experience.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "....All of these images came from news video recorded off the air, or at least that's what it looks like to me. There was no timestamps on any of the footage. I can review the footage to see if there's any signs of when it was taken in relation to the fireball. It's possible that this is a charge being loaded, but I always thought of it as a man donning an air bottle in preparation for entry to the building. There is footage in WANR of a guy standing with his back to the camera whose wearing the type of air bottle I think was being donned in the pic you've referred to.......The only footage I've seen of anyone on top of the building prior to the fire is in WTROE of the kid on the water tower, whom was shot. I haven't seen any footage of choppers lowering cargo onto the buildings and I wouldn't expect to either, what with the ever present, ever watchful news cameras camped out at satellite city. I would expect this to be done on the ground, under the cover of darkness with the approach to building being made on the side of the building opposite satellite city as this would best conceal the people making the approach.

Freeper Alamo-Girl "....A previous poster had mentioned that the Delta guys and other special ops would have access to prototypes. Regardless of the exact equipment though, the technique would be the same and the physical evidence still points to a professionally executed charge IMHO.

Freeper AAPATRIOT "....My friends father is an explosives expert that worked for the the law firm of the families and survivors and he told me atleast 4 years ago that his father and Gen. Ben Partin agreed that explosives were used to blow up the bunker. He said it was some kind of high tech, extrenely hot explosive that turns concrete into dust.

Freeper dlts "....

Click on the thumbnail to view full sized image

Maybe this is nothing, but I noticed that the circular object partially seen in the corner is about the same size as the hole in the roof. After seeing the SOF, which appears to be of similar proportions, could we be looking at the actual charge (or remnants) used? This has been an excellent and most informative thread so far. Hat's off to all who've contributed so far.

Freeper rangerx (to dlts) "....I thought at first it might be possible, but I rather doubt it. The surface is too smooth on the curved edge. Using an improvised device to do what the SOF does would seriously deform, if not completely destroy the platter upon contact with the concrete.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker ".... I think dlts is referring to the SOF container, not the platter. What do you think, rangerX?

Freeper rangerx "... I know what you're saying about the container. However, the container, whatever it may be as an improvised device, or even if it were the real SOF container, would be damn near vaporized. The idea on this kind of charge is to focus the majority of the energy into the breaching plate. This is done by shaping the container in a very particular manner. The blast containment required to force the platter outward is measured in microseconds. However, there is still a hell of a lot of blast left over, which blows the rest of the container or improvised container, to hell.

Freeper aristeides "...We know they had three prototype robots at Waco...."

Freeper sauropod "...There were definitely M88A1s in action at WACO...."

Freeper rangerx "....I really need to see a picture of what vehicles were there, 'cause I'm starting to get confused. The only ones I can verify that I've seen in pictures are the M1 and the Bradley. You can verify the M88. Can anybody verify the M728 CEV...."

Freeper dlts "...

The image on the left is a photo of your requested CEV M728. The image on the right was taken from the Linda Thompson video #2. This footage was shot after the fire. Note the barrel on the side of the turret and other details. I hope this is what you're looking for.

Freeper rangerx "....Thanks much. That's what I was looking for. I did a little looking around on Linda Thompson's site. They had at least a company of Bradleys there, a couple M1s, the CEVs, M88s, and some M113s. Basically a reinforced mechanized infantry company. Guess that ought to be enough to take on 80-odd civilian men, women and children armed with small arms. That's about the same mix that I expected to use in the Fulda Gap to take on a Soviet motorized rifle battalion with it's attached tank company. The BDs must have been some pretty tough dudes to warrant that amount of firepower.

WRT the short tube on the CEV. The CEV is an awesome system for breaching obstacles. That little short tube fires a 165mm HEP (high explosive plastic) shell that is made for knocking down walls, roadblocks, bunkers, and just about everything else. The max effective range isn't more than about 800 meters, and you can actually see the shell going downrange because it is so slow, but it makes one hell of a bang when it hits. Actually, in training with the CEV, you're supposed to be under armor (hatches closed) anytime you fire the thing, since the blast radius is greater than the max effective range. If the feds had used this to take out the "bunker", their story about the bunker collapse would have held up. BTW, the next time the feds need to do a Waco, they'll be using the Grizzly instead of the CEV......"

Grizzly

Freeper rebel for ever 2/13/00 "..... There is no doubt in my mind they were fired on. I know what gun fire looks like with thermal imaging, starlight scopes and the like. I would also like fellow freepers to look at Lew Rockwell's web site go to the waco post. There are pictures of the concrete bunker were a hole was blown thru the top. As a demo expert and former Ranger I immediately knew what caused this hole a shape charge. Shape charges are used to blow holes in reinforced concrete and paved roads they will also penatrate solid steel. We use to follow up by placing cratering charges in the hole the shape charges make, we would employ this on road ways where there was no way to get around the crater and wait to ambush what ever came along. The crater charge would create a huge V shape hole traping tanks if they went in they didn't come out. Shape charges have a cone shaped projectile which penatrates, it sits on small legs to give the projectile time to accelerate before impact. If one was placed on top of the bunker everyone inside would have been killed from the concusion, being that it was such a small enclosed area. Wonder if they checked the VICTIMS for hemorrhaging during the autopsy. Shape charges are easy to use and with a quick lesson anyone could have placed it there. Can fellow freepers who are familar with military explosives look at the photo's and give me your opinon. I base my conclusion on the way the hole is small and concaved only a projectile will make this kind of hole just ordinary charges such as Semtex or C4 would be much more spread out. I sure would like to see a picture of the floor of the bunker because if it was a shape charge it would have kept going into the floor below....."

Freeper rebel for ever 2/13/00 ".... After looking at the link above [DSL] it does look more like a laid charge, such as a sachel charge. The photo I looked at before looked like the rebar was broken in two, but the shadow was misleading. A shaped charge would have broken thru the rebar vaporizing some of it. There are still ways to direct the explosion in one direction with improvising. Using a v shaped piece of metal over the charge it's not that effective but it helps direct it more in one direction. The hole was not as round as it looked in the other photo I saw, also leading me to believe it was more likely somthing like a sachel charge. This would more explain the secondary explosion of the propane tank there is alot more shrapnel produce with these type of explosions than with a shaped charge. Another factor is the concrete wasn't poured well meaning they might have not used a vibrator to get all the air bubbles out of it when they poured it. They could have just placed a small amount of c4 on it and got lucky. One thing for sure it was caused by a explosive device, they know it and some of us know it....."

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker 2/13/00 "....The charge rebel for ever has described sounds like a SOF demo kit turned on it's side so it's aimed straight down and mounted to a tripod. The SOF demo kit is transported while it's empty and when you're ready to use it, you pack it with whatever high explosive you want to use. This could be C4 or even detasheet.

Unlike the PAM charge, the SOF demo kit is a stand-off weapon, meaning it needs some airspace between it and the intended target. It can be fired from up to 50 feet from the intended target, but can also be used at much closer distances as rebel for ever suggests.

The PAM charge needs to be mounted directly to the surface of the intended target, hence the need for the sound suppressed stud driver that it comes with. A sound suppressed stud driver is a nail gun that's been fitted with a silencer.

For this reason and because of the size of the hole (24") I think it was a SOF demo kit. The 24" extra large size is used to cut through reinforced concrete columns. The ceiling beam in the pantry is nothing more than a column rotated to horizontal and used to support the slab concrete ceiling. Only the extra large SOF demo kit could cut through the beam to collapse the ceiling in one shot without creating too much of a blast which would raise too many questions when viewed on the news video later on. The large F was a distraction so the initial SOF demo kit blast could be later attributed to being an initial part of the large fireball.

But, they missed and only punched a 24" hole instead of effecting the collapse of the ceiling as they intended. That's why the autopsies are so important. They prove the lie. According to the autopsies, a large number of the people in the room died because of "buried alive by concrete debris", suffocation and blunt force trauma from the falling debris. I say, "What Debris?!" the roof didn't collapse. There's only a two-foot hole in a roof in a 6-inch thick concrete roof. There isn't enough physical material in that much concrete to have killed as many people in the manner that is claimed in the autopsy reports.

Ol'Dan Tucker to rebel for ever 2/13/00 "....Alamo-Girl was pointed to a couple of animated GIFs a week ago or so and she's since put them onto her web site....I think they're relevent to the points you raise about the hole we're discussing. They're about half way down the page. There's also descriptions of both the SOF demo kit and the PAM kit.

The animated gif of the PAM, in particular shows the effect of the copper platter on reinforced concrete and it seems that it only bends the rebar and doesn't cut it as expected. I personally tend to think it was the SOF demo kit because of the size of the hole and what I perceive was the intended purpose for putting the charge on the roof. I don't think it was to kill everyone in the room, but to cause the roof to collapse without causing too large of a blast that would attract unwanted attention. I think they intended to cut through the ceiling beam on the underside that would allow the roof to collapse. At least that's what the autopsies attribute the cause of death to be for quite a few of the people inside. The conditions of their bodies, however, point to another cause entirely.

I'm no expert, but I would like to have your opinion about the SOF demo kit shown on Alamo-Girl's site and whether you think it'd be used as you said in your original post to this thread.

I tend to agree with your point of view, I hate I gave Almo girl some misleading info, because of the first photo I saw. A shadow was over the hole. It looked to me like the rebar was cut or melted (Vaporized actually) in the first photo. I saw a tale tale sign of a Shaped charge. It also looked like the rebar was bent inward, but if straigtened out it would not touch another sign some of it vaporized. Then I see the photo's in her link and it showed the rebar intact, not even bent with the C clamps still on them, which is strange why didn't they just tie the rebar together with wire like it's usually done.

There are two close-up photos available. The first came from Carol Valentine's Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum and the second from Waco: A New Revelation.

Here's a close-up of the hole in the roof prior to the debris being cleared. Note that this image has been color-corrected slightly from the version she offers. It does tend to answer the discoloration question you have below, although I don't think this is completely true to life colors. the one on the right was taken after the debris was cleared and LE had been stomping around on the ceiling for a few days. The testimony of the Texas Ranger in charge of the pantry said the ceiling was crumbling during the course of his investigation. That's why the hole changed shape between the two photos.

   
Click on the thumbnail to view the full-size image.

Here's the hole from the inside.

  
Click on the thumbnails to view the full-size image.

This means it was a fast burning type of explosive C4, or semtex, but it's also strange there was no discoloration around the edges of the hole. What's your opinion? I can't help but think the concrete had alot of air bubbles in it to give way like it did without the rebar bending at all. I know rebar will stay intact because of the mass differences, but damn it still should have bent inward some! That has me stumped and it's the only thing I can think of. I have just not seen that kind of hole in concrete without some rebar deformation. Again, what do you think? It couldn't have been anything but a explosion or once again the rebar would be bent even more if a heavy object or jack hammer was the cause. I'm going to go over her link with a fine tooth comb when I have more time, cause it's driving me crazy. I had four kids in the house today, now we are having severe weather, with a tornado warning it appears one is heading straight for us so I will get back with you thanks for your help we'll figure it out, cause I want who ever gave the orders to pay!

Actually, from the various photos, the rebar did bend as you think it should. You can see the rebar from the inside and how much it was pushed downward. The clamps were added by LE after the fire. As you can tell from the above photo, they weren't there initially.

It took us a little while to figure out that the rebar wasn't cut on the right side as the camera faces the hole in the first image. It's because the shadows of the rebar are casting funny shadows on the ceiling beam below it. This photo also shows how close they came to the beam. As they say, close, but no cigar.

After seeing the hole from the inside, it was confirmed that the rebar was only bent, but not cut.....

Another possibility that occurred to me and maybe you can help me out here, is that the amount of HE loaded into the SOF demo kit can be changed depending on the task at hand. In other words, for smaller jobs one would put less HE into it and for larger jobs one would put more into it. Along those same lines, if one wanted to keep the blast as small as possible to conceal it, wouldn't one put in only enough HE to get the job done, rather than packing the 8" x 24" container to the brim? If so, then wouldn't a smaller charge shatter the concrete leaving the rebar bent, but not broken. What do you think?

WorldNetDaily.com 2/26/00 David Bresnahan "......"So, what have they classified? Especially when we hear that the FBI has taken a clear position that they didn't shoot any guns there. And, not only that, at least one of the weapons we think was fired there is strictly a military weapon. The FBI doesn't have one. So if it was fired there we presume it was fired by military people," he said. The letter gives a number of reasons for the need to declassify the military documents, including:

* Admitted involvement of at least 10 active-duty military personnel during the 51-day siege, and three who admit to being present the day of the fire.
* Sources who have informed Brannon that military personnel were observed with the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team during the assault.
* The congressional investigation discovered that military personnel admitted involvement with the armored vehicles used in the raid.
* A military source told Brannon that Delta Force soldiers were "pulling triggers."
* A CIA employee reported that a high-level briefing with Reno detailed plans for military involvement a month before the raid.
* The Texas Rangers conducted an investigation and told Brannon there is evidence that there were more Special Forces soldiers present at Waco than the government admits to. The Texas Rangers also believe those soldiers were involved in the assault.
* Government documents indicate there were three Delta Force soldiers in forward locations at Waco. The three Delta Force soldiers who gave testimony to Brannon claimed they were in different locations, and they firmly stated they were the only Delta Force soldiers present.

Brannon also points out in his letter to Cohen that the FBI and Department of Defense have not been as specific in their answers as they should be. When asked about shots fired at the Branch Davidians on April 19, 1993, the FBI responded: "No FBI agent shot, and nobody under FBI supervision/direction/control did either." The Department of Defense responded to the same question in a letter, saying, "No DoD person shot, and nobody under DoD supervision/direction/control did either, based on currently available information." ....."

WorldNetDaily.com 2/26/00 David Bresnahan "......WorldNetDaily is in receipt of a letter from the United States Special Operations Command in response to a Freedom of Information Act request seeking military documents regarding Waco. The letter explained why the military has classified some of those documents: "Portions of the documents were found to contain information concerning military plans, weapons, or operations; and vulnerabilities or capabilities or systems, installations, projects, or plans relating to the national security, the unauthorized disclosure of which reasonably could be expected to cause serious damage to the national security." WorldNetDaily asked Cohen by fax whether the statement also applied to the documents Brannon is seeking to declassify. Cohen's office has not responded. ......"

Freeper rebel for ever 2/18/00 ".....Thanks for your responce, yep your dead on, on the C-4. What do you think about the idea of them using a shaped charge to cut the support beam in two to make the bunker collaspe. (They just missed) The picture that Alamo Girl and Ol Dan Tucker sent me sure looks that way. If you look at the picture of the hole before it get's deformed from the work it is almost perfectly round the only explosive I know of that can make that kind of hole is some form of shaped charge...."

Freeper revel for ever " ..... The pictures you sent shed alot better light on the hole. I agree with your theory they were trying to hit the ceiling beam to collapse the whole bunker. The SOF demo kit I am not familar with, must have came along after I PCSed. Did this take the place of the sachel charge? I tell ya looking at the one picture before the hole was deformed makes me think it was a shaped charge again. I am thinking the rebar could have not been cut because it was spaced far enough apart for it to stay intact. You know a shape charge would be perfect to cut the concrete beam in two if memory serves me correctly they will penatrate thirty six inches of solid steel, so if they would have hit the beam that bunker would have folded up like a house of cards.Making it very easy for them to say the people inside died from the collapse of the bunker due to bad construction. It also would not make a huge fireball or be that noticable from a far distance with everthing else that was going. I am convinced the fireball was the propane tank most explosive's I'm familar with just don't make that kind of fireball only gas explosions. This is due to gas being propelled outwardly igniting as it spreads out from the intial explosion......"

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "..... As I said previously, I'm not an expert in munitions, so I'm not sure if the SOF has replaced the satchel. Others, like rangerX or sauropod may be able to shed some light. It's my understanding that the SOF demo kit is a shaped charges that uses a copper platter as the penetrator, so you're probably correct in your assumption that the hole was a result of a shaped charge. The SOF demo kit simply allows the det man to "stand back" from the target and aim it in the desired direction. I've received some technical info on shaped charges that I'm reviewing right now and should be making available in the next couple of days. I've also acquired video footage of a propane BLEVE from a series of tanks that looks to be about the same size and capacity as the propane tank that the govt says exploded. I haven't had a chance to look closely at it, but the explosion at Mt. Carmel looks to be much larger than these were, which casts suspicion on the govt story that it was a propane BLEVE. I'll know more in a couple of days after I've had a chance to digitize the clip and compare them more directly......"

Freeper sauropod ".....A hole two feet across would not have been produced by shaped charges which are a liner charge or explosively formed penetrators. For a shaped charge to make a hole that size, it would have had to 1) cut the rebar; 2) tear the bunker apart. ...... The shaped charges i am talking about are very directed in terms of where the jet goes. You also can't apply the same rules to going through RHA as you do through concrete. For a directed shaped charge to make a hole that size it would have had to have been huge. also, it would have been (bad choice of words) overkill for the problem at hand. ...."

TECHNICAL ON THE FIREBALL Here's the info I promised concerning Riddle's death. This issue also revolves around the questionable Huey video that Dr. Allard claims shows machine-gun fire. With both Riddle and Henry, the producers of WANR attempt to mislead the viewer into believing that Riddle and/or Henry ventured outside around 9am on April 19. WANR attempts to put forward the notion that Riddle was shot by a sniper and that Henry was shot by the machine gun fire that Allard concludes was recorded on videotape. There is a big problem with their scenario. Both bodies were recovered from an area that would have been well inside the main building; from the area of the kitchen which was in front of the pantry.

In the case of Riddle, this is extremely unusual because WANR shows the Dr. Ron Graser's re-examination of Riddle's remains and concludes that his body had been torn apart by the tread of a tank.

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Images Taken From Waco: A New Revelation Click on the thumbnail to view the full-size image
In Waco: A New Revelation, the circumstances surrounding the deaths of Jimmy Riddle and Phillip Henry are discussed. The video presents photographs and video tape from about 9am, April 19, 1993 that are used to craft a theory about how these two men died. According to the theory, one is purported to have died as a result of sniper fire and the other from an automatic weapon fired from a Huey helicopter manned by federal agents.
This is an aerial photo, presumably taken by the FBI at 9:00am, April 19, 1993. The lightened circle in the center of the image highlights what is purported to be a Davidian outside the building.FBI Command spotted this individual and alerted the FBI HRT sniper post, Sierra 2. Falcon 2 was dispatched to intercept this individual.	The position of the video camera appears to be behind Mt. Carmel, possibly from inside the FBI HRT sniper post, Sierra 2. The Huey is just to the right of the water tower, slightly above the perceived horizon. This video shows three sets of flashes near the helicopter that are claimed by the producers of Waco: A New Revelation and Dr. Edward Allard to have been caused by automatic weapons fire on-board the Huey. A detailed examination of this video was performed and the results bring into doubt the conclusions drawn in Waco: A New Revelation about what it shows.
Waco: A New Revelation goes on to discuss the gunshot wounds suffered by Jimmy Riddle and Phillip Henry.
According to the autopsy report, Jimmy Riddle died of a single gunshot wound to the head. This is the autopsy sketch of location of this wound. It is highlighted with the green dot.	According to the autopsy report for Phillip Henry, he died of multiple gunshot wounds to the head and torso. This is an autopsy sketch that shows the locations of Phillip Henry's torso wounds. It presents the helicopter flash sequence video as possible evidence that Henry was killed by automatic weapons fire that Dr. Edward. Allard concludes originated from the hovering Huey.
This is a copy of an official court document of the locations where Dr. Peerwani, the lead forensic pathologist recorded that remains of the Branch Davidians were recovered. I obtained a copy of it from Carol A. Valentine's Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum. The colored dots represent the locations where the remains were recovered of those whom the coroner determined died from one or more gunshot wounds. The light blue dots represent those people whose remains were recovered from the first floor and the green dots represent those people whose remains were recovered from the second floor, which was the roof of the concrete pantry. There are two purple dots. These represent the locations where Jimmy Riddle's and Phillip Henry's bodies were recovered. These are on the first floor.	It is implied in Waco: A New Revelation that either one or both, Jimmy Riddle and/or Phillip Henry were shot behind the main building. While discussing the mutilation of Riddle's body, it zooms into this shot of a CEV demolishing the rear of the gym, so the viewer is lead to believe that this is where the mutilation of Riddle's body took place. This area is highlighted with the red circle. The blue circle denotes the approximate area in which the official court documents show that Riddle's and Henry's bodies were recovered.
The video's producers present an aerial photograph of an unknown person whom is reported to have been observed by FBI command and advised Sierra 2. According to FBI logs, Falcon 2, a Huey helicopter was dispatched to intercept the person in the photo. Dr. Edward Allard concludes that the videotape of the flashes seen near the Huey shows someone inside the helicopter was firing an automatic weapon. It discusses Dr. Ron Graser's re-examination of Jimmy Riddle's remains to determine the cause of the mutilation. Dr. Graser concludes that the mutilation was consistent with Riddle's body having been run over by a tank tread. Although it's possible that Riddle was shot by a sniper as suggested in Waco: A New Revelation, the location that his body was recovered was far from the location that has been implied. The location implied in Waco: A New Revelation is in direct contradiction with the location his body was recovered as recorded in the official court documents. Dr. Graser's findings for the cause of the mutilation are also unusual considering the location where Riddle's remains were recovered. The random pattern of Henry's wounds appear to be like what could be expected from an automatic weapon, but like Riddle, his body was found inside the building, alongside a group of other Branch Davidians, not outside, behind the building as is implied by this entire sequence in Waco: A New Revelation.

Ian Goddard says fireball not a propane tank fire ".... Propane tanks have emergency vales that release the contents when the temperature gets too high, preventing an explosive rupture of the tank. The resulting burn off is like a giant Bic lighter, not a mushroom cloud. So even if the propane tank in question did have contents, it would not do what we see. ....."

To which Ol'DanTucker says: "....In the cases of overheating, this is true. But the claim in WANR isn't that the explosion or fire overheated the tank, but that the shaped charge ruptured the tank and caused it to explode. Novel was Ramsey Clark's investigative source for info regarding Waco in 1996 when he gave the AFN radio interview recently documented here on FR......"

Freeper Ol'DanTucker "..."100-Lb." tank ... Richard Sherrow, former ATF fire investigator says exploded as documented recently here on FR....... "It is known that a large, commercial-type gas range was located in the kitchen/dining area adjacent to the four-story tower. This range was fed by a large, 100 pound propane tank located externally to the dining room. The propane was conducted through the wall at that location by a conduit pipe. The tank appeared to be nearly full of propane as evidenced by a spectacular boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion (BLEVE) during the fire."

Freeper Ol'DanTucker more on Gordon Novel "....Well, StarTech got the big 250 gallon propane container that the government swore up and down blew up and made that fire ball. And it's sitting over there. It was dead empty and had never been filled up. The government arson investigator, Paul Gray, swore before the Congress that he saw it blown up. The pictures of it, we have the original receipts now. We have the original-- It was an absolutely empty container. The University of Maryland was paid a quarter of a million dollars by the Justice Department to write a report that attributed that explosion in that blast over the church vault as being a hundred gallons of propane. Well, there's no-- And it's dead over the vault. The only propane container back there was an empty one and we now have it photographed so, I mean, they not only lied in the Justice Department Report, but they lied before the Congress and the Congress is covering it up....."

To Freeper Rowdee from Ol'DanTucker "...I have a problem with his "tank appearing to be nearly full" theory...So do I, and they're the same problems you have with the story...... You stated that your family uses nearly all 500 gallons of propane during the winter months of November and December. Fair enough. Your family is probably average, so that means 4-5 people eating. You probably have an average-sized stove which means 2-4 burners and 1-2 ovens. There is some confusion on the capacity of the Davidian's propane tank. I read that it was either a 100Lb. or 100-Gal., depending on the source. Either one is equally ridiculous, so it doesn't matter which is used for reference. The Davidians were using this propane tank to fuel a large, commercial-type gas range. This was used to prepare meals for at least 80 people during the 51-day siege, yet on the 51st day of the siege, it was still nearly full and capable of causing the massive fireball seen on videotape. Is the government's lie starting to sound really ridiculous yet? It should....."

Freeper Thorn11cav 1/28/00 "....What if you just placed your shape charge under a propane tank. Then you'd get the explosion necessary to blow the bunker, and the fireball to call it a Propane tank explosion. I blew scores of underground bunkers in Vietnam as a tunnel rat. Although none were concrete, I can attest that C-4 and det-cord can really do a number on any structure..."

 

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker:

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From a previous post of mine:

I went to the Texas DPS web site and obtained a copy of the aerial photograph of the Mt. Carmel Center on the day of the BATF raid in an attempt to find the propane tank and I did.

The water tanks are circled in blue and the propane tank is circled in red. Notice where the red circle is in relation to the swimming pool.

This is a close-up of the area indicated by the red circle. The propane tank is just left of the center of the circle.

Here's a close-up of the hole in the roof prior to the area being cleared. Note that this image was taken from Carol A. Valentine's Waco Holocaust Electronic Museum and has been color-corrected slightly from the version she offers.

Click on the thumbnail to view the full-size image.

Next are images of both the "ruptured" propane tank and the "unexploded" propane tank after the fire.

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Images

Taken From Waco: A New Revelation

Click

on the thumbnails to view the full-size images

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This is the ruptured propane tank that both the US Govt and the producers of Waco: A New Revelation (WANR) claim to have exploded. The producers of WANR claim that this tank ruptured and exploded just after a demolition charge exploded. They claim that the demo charge was planted on the roof of the adjacent concrete structure seen in the background behind the tank.	This is another view of the ruptured tank, concrete structure and another propane tank. This one appears to be in relatively good condition. This Un-Exploded Tank didn't move during the entire 51-day siege. It has been located on aerial photos taken on February 28, 1993 and is in the same position shown here. This is the unexploded propane tank mentioned by Gordon Novel in his 1996 AFN radio network interview.
This is an aerial view of the same scene. The ruptured tank is clearly visible as is the concrete structure. One end of the unexploded propane tank is visible.	This is another aerial view of the same scene. In this one, the unexploded propane tank and concrete structure are clearly visible and the ruptured tank is partially obscurred. Note the location of the hole in the roof of the structure and it's relative location to the two propane tanks.
This next section presents all of the aerial photos of Mt. Carmel prior to the fire that destroyed the building. These are used in an attempt to locate both propane tanks. Even though the location of where the ruptured propane tank has been noted in all photos, only the first one contains an object which could be interpreted as being this tank. This isn't conclusive, however because other photos which show this same area, such as the second one, fail to reveal this dark spot in the same location as the first photo.
This is an overhead shot of Mt. Carmel. There is a dark spot in the middle of the concrete pad on the ground adjacent to the vaut, which is located at the base of the tower behind the unexploded propane tank circled in blue.	This was taken from the rear of Mt. Carmel. Note that the dark spot seen in the previous photo is not visible in this image.
This was taken from the front and side of Mt. Carmel.	Another front shot of Mt. Carmel. Again, the dark spot is not visible in this image.
This next section looks at the aerial FLIR shots of Mt. Carmel in an attempt to locate both propane tanks.
The unexploded propane tank is visible in this FLIR image. The location of the ruptured tank shows no distictive shapes.	This is another FLIR image taken while Mt. Carmel was burning. The unexploded propane tank is visible, but there is no distinctive shapes in the area of the ruptured tank.

 

I have reviewed all of the aerial photos contained within WANR of Mt. Carmel before the fire began and none show anything resembling a propane tank near the location where it was after the fire. It's possible that it is hidden beneath the eaves of the roof and is unable to be seen in the aerial shots contained within WANR. The one side of the building not seen in the aerial photos in WANR is the wall that the "ruptured" propane tank was supposedly located.

Here are some photos presented by WANR of the hole in the roof as well as other images of the vault.

This is the hole after the debris around it has been cleared away.	This is a close-up of the same photo to the left.
This is the hole as seen from the inside of the vault.	This is a photo of the inside of the vault showing the crushed walk-in refridgerator unit.
This is a photo taken inside the vault after the debris has been cleared from the floor. The ceiling beam seen at the top of the photo is the same one seen in the outside photos of the hole in the roof. The hole is barely visible near the upper left corner of the image.	This is a front shot of the vault. The ruptured propane tank would be located on the right side of the vault and the unexploded propane tank, behind it.

In WANR, video footage is presented that shows a small bright "flash" immediately prior to the fireball. This, along with dialog and a quote from Brig. Gen. Partin, implies that when the demolition charge was detonated on the roof of the vault, it ignited the propane spilling from ruptured propane tank causing the fireball.

This brings up an interesting contradiction. Since none of the aerial photos taken before the fire show the ruptured propane tank, the only possible location it could be is under the eaves of the roof which places this propane tank quite close to the concrete wall of the vault. On the other side of this wall was the large, walk-in refridgerator unit. (cooler)

The hole in the ceiling was on the far side of the cooler in relation to the ruptured propane tank. Because of the sheer mass of metal and concrete between the ruptured propane tank and the hole in the roof, along with the lack of visible damage to the outside of the concrete wall that this propane tank was supposedly located, the likelihood that this tank was ruptured by the demolition charge on the roof of the vault, as implied in WANR, is extremely remote.

So, if the demolition charge didn't rupture the propane tank, which is claimed to have caused the fireball, what did rupture it?

Freeper aristeides 1/28/00 "....So what does everybody think? Is there any reason not to believe Gordon Novel's explanation of detasheet packed into a container being the explosive agent? ...."

Freeper Ol'DanTucker 1/28/00 "...It's not that I don't believe the detasheet could have been used as Novel described it. Other aspects he described in 1996 have turned out to be true today, like the FLIR. What involvement does Novel have with the civil case? Carol Valentine says that Novel, Clark, McNulty and Partin are part of a loose coalition of people who are working with the Davidian civil lawyers. If so, then why the change of the cause of the fireball from the improvised detasheet breaching charge to the propane tank?....."

Freeper flamefront "...Important new info was stated by McNulty today on George Putnam's show today: three of the pyrotechnic cannisters were found at the very locations of the three starting points of the compound fire.

Freeper Ian Goddard: "...

The following sequence shows the first explosion that WARN says is the result of the shaped charge, followed by the massive fireball (MF):

The vertical red line defines the center of the first small blast. The last image (scroll screen to the right) defines the parameters and center of the MF. As we can see, the center of the first blast and the MF do not line up.

If the first blast is over the hole and if the MF was from the tank to the right of the room, then the first blast should be to the left of the center of the MF -- which is in fact the case. I believe my graphic showing the MF over the room is still correct, since we can see above that, if the first blast is directly over the hole, the MF easily expands over the whole room and the highest point of the MF is almost in-line with, but slightly to the right of, the first-blast's location, as my placement of the room indicates.

I suspect that the ruptured tank (if that's the source of the MF) ejected its contents against the wall of the room, which then expanded upwards and united with upward forces from the first blast (or possibly with forces shooting out of the hole as the action-reaction force of the force that had just been injected into it). Observe the last two images in the sequence above, there almost appears to be two fireballs, one high and the second is low to the ground and very wide. Considering the first blast, one might posit that the event may have been composed of three explosions....."

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I'm anxious to see the pictures you mention! What I meant to say was that IMHO the backfire from the explosion could have resulted in the rupture which, among other things perhaps, would have contributed to the huge fireball. One of the pictures above makes it look like the fireball is actually a combination of several individual ones...

Here are the pics I promised. Actually, there are two short video clips, one animated-GIF and one image, but who's counting. ;^)

Please bear in mind that these are airshow explosions of two-liter bottles of fuel ignited with blasting caps so they're not going to be as large nor as spectacular as the fireball seen in WANR, which according to Carol Valentine was a 55-gal drum of jet fuel that was detonated. These were also detonated on a relatively calm day with very light winds whereas the fireball over Mt. Carmel occurred on a very windy day, so the smoke cloud that was left behind dispersed pretty quickly. The closest match visually speaking, is the animated-GIF of the single airshow explosion.

Both video clips are 640x480 with the WANR fireball playing at 5 frames per second (fps) and the airshow fireball clip playing at 3fps. I created the video clips at this large of a frame size to maximize the visible details and reduced the number of frames to keep the file size managable and also so they would play on the most systems possible. Most people should be able to view the videos, but if not, I suggest going to Microsoft's web site and downloading the latest version of MediaPlayer. I've got version 6.0 and both play fine on my system. Let me know if you have any problems.

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Click on the thumbnail to go to a web page where you may download a short video clip of the explosion. This is an image taken from Waco: A New Revolution of the fireball that erupted over Mt. Carmel as the building was burning. According to the narrator, this fireball was caused by the ignition of propane spilling from a nearby propane bottle.

Click on the thumbnail to see the full-size image. This is actually two fuel explosions in rapid sequence that were a part of a military assault demonstration at a local airshow. The upper fireball is from the first and the one immediately below and to the left is the second. According to the narrator of the video, each explosion consisted of 2 liters of fuel that was detonated with a blasting cap. Unfortunately, the video cut to this explosion just after the initial detonation and formation of the fireballs.

This animated-GIF is another fuel explosion. It is located further away from the camera's position than the image above. This was also 2 liters of fuel detonated with a blasting cap.

Click on the thumbnail to go to a web page where you may download a short video clip of the explosions. This is a sequential explosion of several 2 liter bottles of fuel detonated with blasting caps.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker 2/2/00 "..... I'm not sure, but I don't think that either of McNulty's two videos, nor Thompson's videos contain all of the available footage. According to WANR and other sources, the gassing of the concrete structure went on for around two hours, so it's doubtful that any of us has been able to review all of video of the penetrations that took place that day. On the other hand, the only footage we're really concerned with is the footage taken right before the fire breaks out.

But, as you point out, there appear to have been only two propane tanks in that part of the building. (kitchen/dining room) One appears to be intact and the other "ruptured". Circumstanctial evidence points to the "ruptured" tank as being the one the survivors are describing. IMO, this leaves only one of three possibilities:

1) The survivors are wrong that the rupturing of the propane tank was the cause of the fire that broke out at the back of the building, near the dining room. This would reinforce the assertion that the "ruptured" propane tank was the cause of the fireball.

2) The survivors are right, but the footage showing the CEV running over the propane tank and starting the fire isn't shown in any of the videos. (McNulty or Thompson) This would refute the assertion that the propane tank was the cause of the fireball.

3) Gordon Novel was right in his 1996 AFN radio interview. The fireball and hole were caused by a improvised breaching charge. This refutes the assertion that the propane tank was the cause of the fireball.

In reality, there is also a fourth possibility; that Carol Valentine is right that the fireball was an intentional detonation of a 55-gal drum of jet fuel. Although she claims that the fire was fed by petroleum (jet fuel?) used to cover up evidence that the Davidians had long since been dead by the time April 20 rolled around, she doesn't speculate as to the purpose of intentional detonation of the drum of jet fuel....."

FReeper Ol'Dan Tucker - Research:

Well, I've finished putting the propane BLEVE stuff online. I'm reposting it here. Once everyone has had a chance to review what I've put up, we can discuss what conclusions may be drawn. I know that I've got some things to say.

I also need to add the aerial shot of the fireball over Mt. Carmel to the fireball web page. I've added it here for the sake of discussion.

dan

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Fireball Comparison

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Click on the thumbnail to download a short video clip of the explosion. (480K AVI) This is an image taken from Waco: A New Revolution of the fireball that erupted over Mt. Carmel as the building was burning. According to the narrator, this fireball was caused by the ignition of propane spilling from a nearby propane bottle.
Click on the thumbnail to see the full-size image. This is actually two fuel explosions in rapid sequence that were a part of a military assault demonstration at a local airshow. The upper fireball is from the first and the one immediately below and to the left is the second. According to the narrator of the video, each explosion consisted of 2 liters of fuel that was detonated with a blasting cap. Unfortunately, the video cut to this explosion just after the initial detonation and formation of the fireballs.	This animated-GIF is another fuel explosion. It is located further away from the camera's position than the image above. This was also 2 liters of fuel detonated with a blasting cap.
Click on the thumbnail to download a short video clip of the explosions (615K AVI) This is a sequential explosion of several 2 liter bottles of fuel detonated with blasting caps.

Propane BLEVE

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Click on the thumbnail to see the full-size image This is a fire that broke out at a liquid petroleum (propane) refilling station. The two red circles highlight the propane tanks that will be shown exploding in the first two vido clips below.
Click the thumbnail to download a clip of the explosion (315K AVI) This is the first of several propane tanks that exploded. These tanks are about the same size and capacity as the one that the federal government and the producers of Waco: A New Revelation say caused the fireball over Mt. Carmel on April 19, 1993.	Click the thumbnail to download a clip of the explosion (336K AVI) This clip shows two more propane tank explosions.
Click the thumbnail to download a clip of the explosion (558K AVI) This is a close-up video of a propane tank BLEVE. This tank is used in the horizontal position where as the propane tank shown in Waco: A New Revelation would probably have been used in the vertical or upright orientation.	Click the thumbnail to download a clip of the explosion (197K AVI) This is another propane tank BLEVE. This tank is also a horizontal tank, but does include a good example of a BLEVE fireball.
This is the aerial shot of the fireball. There are a couple of features that the fireball over Waco shares with the propane BLEVE photos/videos I've posted. The first is the column of flame under the "head" of the fireball. This column of flame can be seen in the refilling station explosions. The first of the two BLEVE close-up video shows how this column of flame can be formed by the escaping propane immediately prior to ignition. The second is that the propane BLEVE leaves less smoke behind after the fireball has burned itself out than the fuel explosion. This can be seen in all of the propane BLEVE explosions and especially in the last of the BLEVE close-up videos.

After just a cursory review of the "Approximate time to failure for fire impinged propane tanks" chart and assuming the size/dimensions of the tank can be determined (probably from the propane dealer that sold and/or delivered propane to the Davidians. He should still have receipts and even serial numbers on the tank(s). If the tank was fairly large, it was probably leased and he is probably still wondering who is going to repay him for the tank. In a town the size of Waco, there is probably only two or three propane dealers.), it should be possible to learn a lot about the source of ignition: severe torch near top; severe torch near bottom; engulfing fire. If this info can be matched to the aerial and other videos, lots of insight could be gained.

Cool web sites. Thanks! I really like the Queens site. From it I learned that the first close-up video I posted is a two-step high-speed jet BLEVE and the second close-up is a single step BLEVE. I sure wish I had $550 lying around. I would love to play with that BLEVE simulator.

You've touched on one of the points that I wanted to make about this whole BLEVE vs. fuel explosion discussion.

According to the feds, McNulty and I assume the civil lawyers, this was a 100-Lb. propane tank. There's a pic of what is said to have exploded in Waco: A New Revelation and it sort of looks like a small water heater or like a big oxygen tank. The propane tanks at the refilling station pics I posted look to be about the same size and capacity.

In any event, this tank was supposedly "nearly full" at the end of the 51-day siege when it exploded. This tank supposedly fueled a "large, commercial-type gas range" that was used to prepare the meals for some 80-100 people during the course of the 51-day seige.

My question is, how did this propane tank stay as full as it did after 51 days of use, to have caused a BLEVE as large as what's seen on the video tape?

It's a rhetorical question, so I don't expect you to answer it.

I've looked on aerial photos at that part of the building that were taken before the fire and I can't find this particular propane tank in any of them. I do have several photos of the other, "unexploded tank," but not a single one of the tank that exploded.

In 1996, Gordon Novel said during a radio interview, that the only propane tank behind the building was the unexploded one captured in pictures. He said that the one that was said to be the exploded one was a put-up job by the U. of Maryland paid for by the DOIj. The tank that he described in 1996 as the put-up job is the one seen in Waco: A New Revelation and named as the cause of the fireball.

The conflict for me is that the video of the fireball over Mt. Carmel looks like a BLEVE from a large tank, but the people would have been using the propane for 51 days so it's unlikely the tank would have stayed as full as it's said to have been at the time it ruptured.

I personally believe that the fireball was a distraction for the explosion that punched a hole in the roof, so I wouldn't be surprised if the BLEVE and the tale about a propane tank spontaneously rupturing was also a part of the cover story.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker: " Well what is it? A curiously 'undepleted' tank, strangely full after 51 days of use or a 'put-up' job by the UofM for the DOJ? Curiouser and Curiouser. (I believe your idea of attention diversion and cover screen still makes the best sense, considering the cause of the bunker hole suspicions.)

Sorry. The story about the curiously undepleted tank was a part of the cover story. There's been enough dicussion here on FR about the improbability of a tank this size remaining so full at the end of the siege, so I seriously doubt ATF fire investigator Richard Sherrow's account that this 100-Lb propane tank was still "nearly full" after the 51-day siege.

As a result, I having doubts about whether the tank that is said to have exploded was there before the last day. If true, then that means that the tank was brought in and intentionally detonated as a distraction for the breaching charge on the roof. Since the real propane tank was empty, as Novel said it was in 1996 and as the pictures and video today show it to be undamaged except for some scorched paint, the feds would need to "truck" something in to take it's place.

Carol Valentine says that the fireball was a result of a drum of jet fuel that was intentionally detonated, but the column of flame and lack of residual smoke following the fireball both point to a propane BLEVE. I'm leaning toward a combination of the two theories --that the fireball was a result of an intentionally detonated propane tank brought in for the express purpose of distracting from the breaching charge placed on the roof, which was intended to cause the collapse of the roof, etc.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker: ".... A compound like Mt. Carmel would require a fuel source for heat in the winter, as well as their cooking needs. It gets fairly cold in the winter in Waco. If I had "sized" the requirement, I probably would have put a 500 gallon propane tank out there, at a minimum and maybe 1000. (A dealer would want to minimize the number of deliveries.) I've seen pictures of a horizontal, stationary tank, but didn't try to figure out what size it was. ALL propane tanks are fitted with pressure relief valves, so if it gets hot, they are supposed to vent and release gas to the atmosphere. Something ruptured this tank. What do the feds claim ruptured this tank?

It appears there were more than just the one propane tank on the Mt. Carmel property. Here's an aerial shot taken on the day of the ATF raid. If you look just above the "Wa" in "Water Tanks" you can see the 500-1000-Gal. propane tank you're suggesting as well as the other "unexploded" tank:

I've also got a web page set up with a bunch of pics of both the "exploded" tank after the fire and the "unexploded" propane tank, before, during and after the fire. Click here to go to the WANR Propane Tank web page.

As far as what ruptured the tank, everyone is pretty vague. This includes the both feds and Waco: A New Revelation. As near as I can tell, everyone is implying that it ruptured on it's own.

In WANR, they only say that the detonation on the roof ignited propane that was leaking from the ruptured tank, not that the detonation ruptured the tank.

The feds say even less in ATF Fire & Explosion Investigator Richard Sherrow's Fire Report.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker: ".... It could have been a 100-Lb. tank as suggested by Sherrow, and could have been man-portable on even something as simple as a hand-cart.

I remember that all the while, our government was playing horrendous tapes of rabbit's being slaughered and nasty songs etc., directed at high volume into the Davidian home, and that brutally bright lights were being shone on their home at night. All through the nights and days before the final assault, before the bomb and fireball, those families were being psychologically tortured. Oh yes, they were. And possibly pyhsically tortured as well, if the decomposed levels in some of the bodies found there holds up.

The high volume psyops noise being directed at the building would also provide pretty good cover for the sounds of people being killed, too.

There's a reason why no one is addressing the autopsy reports and the condition of the bodies and why the FLIR is receiving all the attention. I believe the FLIR is a dead-end because even if it's proven that they contain gunshots, what has really been proven? That someone was shooting out back. The govt already has a cover story in place for that eventuality. According to McNulty, FLIR footage exists that shows a gunfight between the govt forces and the Davidians. So the fall-back position for the govt is that they were just defending themselves.

This reinforces the erroneous notion that *ALL* of the Davidians were alive on the last day. The condition of their bodies say otherwise. From the level of decomposition of a large number of those recovered from the pantry, it's clear that a majority of these people were already dead on the last day and had been so for quite a while.

The fact that many of them were dismembered and mutilated with many parts of their bodies missing altogether, suggests that this and the fire was used as a means to hide the times, places and circumstances of their deaths.

FROM FREEPER IAN GODDARD'S "WACO BOMBSHELL?" THREAD Following up on these threads:

http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a388fb3780e51.htm
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a38909c541683.htm
http://www.FreeRepublic.com/forum/a3898a2b80388.htm

I just made what could prove to be a case-closing observation regarding the Waco-bomb theory. Observe the box to the left of the hole:

Now observe these boxes, which are used by Special Operations Forces for remote bomb detonation:

A strong similarity! Here we have an shaped-charge-type hole on the roof, shape-charge-type damage inside the room, and a box that looks like a shaped-charge-detonation device on the roof by the hole! Can anyone put a positive ID on the box by the hole? If the box by the hole can be proven to be a RAMS or RAMS-type system, that may be as close to proof as we can get (minus the disappeared physical evidence) that this was a military bomb and SOF operation. That remote-detonation system known as RAMS allows the remote detonation of anti-bunker bombs, such as the PAM:

and the SOF Demo Kit:

Notice the last frame of the PAM animation:

That extremely powerful anti-bunker shaped charge bent the rebar inward and caused only one fracture. It did not "take out" the rebar, as has been claimed any and all shaped charges should do. Save the military pages I've linked to, along with their graphics.

The thinner and smoother rebar exposed in the Waco blast hole could actually allow it avoid fracture under explosive forces. With less surface area for the blast to do work upon and a smoother surface, the blast will have a greater chance of "rolling" along and past its thin surface.

About the Waco bomb, Steven M. Barry, Sergeant First Class, US Army Special Forces (retired), says on Waco: A New Revelation: "Rather than risk your own people going in there and trying to shoot it out with them, it's a standard tactic in city fighting in military operations in built-up terrain to use an explosive in this manor to kill people in a targeted room that you're going to attack." But back to the question, are these devices related?:

WACO BOMB?

Freeper bra ".... The box could be, and I say again, could be the "remote firing devise." The hole in the roof was caused by the penetrating munition or shape charge. I large percentage of the force caused by this type munition is directed or focused toward the target. It is very likely the remote firing devise would not be totally destroyed. In the case proposed in the photo, it looks about right. If you think about some of the photos of Iraqi armor that was destroyed by munitions employing this same principle, there are small holes in the armor but the tank itself appears pretty much intact. All the energy from these munitions is focused inward. The inside of the tank is a much different story

Freeper DugwayDuke "...."All" of the energy in a shaped charge is not focused inward. I think we've had some pictures posted in this forum showing shaped charges going off. Even a cursory examination of those should demonstrate that significant amounts of force are directed outward. And the analogy to the lack of damage on Iraqi tanks is flawed. Tanks are heavily armored, these boxes are not. ..... If the intent of the government was to kill the Davidians as is generally accepted here, there is no reason to insert a team to plant a shaped charge. The risks should be self-evident. And, what would this gain if the government intended to burn the building down? Can anyone reasonable argue that those inside the bunker would have survived the fire? So why run the risks to obtain a result that was sure to happen without incurring these risks. And don't forget that one of these risks would have been that using such an explosive would leave evidence of it's use.

Freeper M2 "...All 3 photos of the RAMS have been doctored. While I'm not accusing anybody of doctoring them in order to fake something, those photos WERE doctored, perhaps only to eliminate scratches or shadows or something. I can tell when a photo has been doctored by a photo-imaging program. What this means to your story, I have no idea.

Freeper bra "....I didn't say ALL the energy. I said a large portion. I have personally used and made my own shape charges. I used same on all kinds of material including reinforced concrete. The design of the munition is very important if your concerned about collateral damage. Not actually knowing the details of the explosive charge used in the case of Waco I can only speculate like evryone else is doing. The tank analogy was just an example for the layman to get a feel for the performance of a shaped charge.

Freeper sauropod "...I asked "somebody who knows" and the term "shaped charge" has a generic sense and a specific sense. In WANR, what tripped me up before was that i am familiar with shaped charges which use an "inverted ice cream cone" construction to form a kinetic penetrator. Apparently, there are many other types of small s shaped charges. The Viet Cong used a flying plate type of mine to counter M113s going down the road. One of those would blow a hole right through the M113. Even in the Civil War, there were cases of soldiers putting explosives on the end of poles and holding them up against the hulls of Yankee ships to try and sink them.

My source also referred to something called the "Monroe" effect and "Midznay-Schardin" (sp?) mines. You guys will have to look at military history for some of this stuff. My source was drawing on memory.

I asked him about dinner plate shaped charges and whether they could fracture concrete and leave the rebar in place. He stated that was certainly possible. He also stated that the shards of concrete would be more lethal than the metal fragments from any sheared rebar. It would be interesting to know if there were a lot of shards of concrete in any of the bodies examined in the autopsy reports. A-G, can you follow this up please?

So, please correct the record. I was wrong about the use of the term "shaped charge" in WANR. That Major was probably right in using the term to describe munitions as he knew them.

Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.

Rectitudine Sto. Sauropod.

Freeper Mind-Numbed-Robot "....If the intent of the government was to kill the Davidians as is generally accepted here, there is no reason to insert a team to plant a shaped charge. The risks should be self-evident. And, what would this gain if the government intended to burn the building down? Can anyone reasonable argue that those inside the bunker would have survived the fire? So why run the risks to obtain a result that was sure to happen without incurring these risks. I omitted DugwayDuke's last sentence about the evidence being found. Now refute the logic.

Freeper marktwain "....If the intent was to kill Davidians, then they could not be sure that the fire would do the trick. There might be ways out that the Davidians could find. The inner room might have been modified with an outside air supply. The Davidians might have rigged exta insulation to protect against heat. The attackers could not know any of this for certain. If you want to kill everyone, you use a multipronged approach -- and the approaches available were somewhat limited by the Media to the front of the building. This is where the few survivors managed to flee the flames.

Freeper Republic "....You tell me-what would the risk have been had anyone survived the fire? Reasonable-ness aside. And what risk are you talking about regarding the use of a small, 16 lb shaped charge bomb, placed on the rooftop, and detonated from who knows how far away...what risk? And in further speculating-since that is what both of us are doing-what if the bomb was used to HIDE evidence? What if the human beings in the Davidian home were already dead? What if the bomb were supposed to collapse the roof and be cited as a cause of death? What if the bomb failed to collapse the roof but the original story of a collapsed roof was maintained? (Did you know that this really happened, was reported on just this way?) Other speculation- What if nerve gas were used in conjunction with the CS gas...do ya think tissue samples (Upon a SECOND, Danforth led investigation, will tell us?) I hope so.

You see-we just don't know-but EVERY bit of info and discussion can bring us closer to the truth...

Freeper republius ".....This look more like a radio transceiver to me. These would normally be constructed with a metal subassembly to hold pots and digital displays which is then covered with a pretty plastic faceplate for appearance. The plastic would have been blown away, revealing the underlying subassembly. The size and shape of the cutouts suggests the common plastic digital displays (several), and note the subassembly has been blown somewhat into the case. There is a round hole lower left that might have held a pot or phone jack. The case looks like it is fairly sturdy, but was split so the top might easily come off for service. This would be consistent with a transmitter. There is also a dark area toward the back of the top which suggests ventilation holes, also consistent with a transmitter.....Notice the long 'rod' below the box. This has what appears to be some sort of mount on the right side, and following the 'rod' to the left I note a bulging area. This could be a ballast coil for a radio transmitting antenna. This might be a reasonable place for an antenna, but the box, if it is indeed a transmitter, must have been placed there later. That should have been inside, and it doesn't look like it could have been blown through that rebar.

Freeper GreyWolf "....I agree that the equipment in the picture appears to be some kind of electronic instrumentation, perhaps a receiver or transmeter. The jack on the lower-left corner is typical of the placement for microphone input. However judging from the number of cutouts for digital displays, I don't think it fits the Rx or Tx category. I'm more inclined to opt for some monitoring or measuring device. Either way, it is somewhat expensive and strangely out of place on top of the bunker. The Davidians were known to have collected surplus equipment and having poked around in a few salvage yards myself, I'm aware that there are many such boxes lying around that are not easily identified. The whole scenerio certainly bears investigating and I would like to see an enhanced blowup of the object.

Freeper Ag88 "....Speculation as to whether the charge was placed to collapse the roof may be correct - note the proximity of the explosion to the main support beam - had the charge been placed just one foot more toward the beam, the beam would have been cut and the roof collapsed. Attackers only had one shot at it, and just missed.

Freeper Maelstrom "...Military grade CS gas breaks down into cyanide gas under extreme heat. According to British military officials with no connection to the case. CS gas is supposedly a "kinder, gentler" nerve gas.

Freeper Alamo-Girl ".... The Waco Holocaust Museum site has the various official autopsy reports. I did a really quick check of one who apparently was found in the bunker and there is mention of "construction debris" in the babies' autopsy. It may be mentioned elsewhere, but I was in a hurry and only checked two. There is also mention of a collapsed structure (and of course, that did not happen.) Many of the bodies were melted together so badly that it was impossible to get an accurate count of the number deceased. Also, the remains were largely liquefied when the cooler was unplugged. The high incidence of missing evidence (such as the roof of the bunker and the bodies) is particularly alarming...

Freeper Ian Goddard "....

Thanks for all the commentary! I agree that there are some differences with the box by the hole and the RAMS devices shown, but there's enough similarity to raise an eyebrow! It stands to reason that there are a range of types and models of remote detonation devices that would have different features and yet probably overall similarities. We need to get a positive ID on that box!

Wouldn't the blast blow items near the hole away? A shaped charge is like a gun, directing it's force in one direction: into the target. However, it stands to reason that some explosive force would be directed to the sides. Notice the human body below the box near the center of the photo, a few broken ribs are visible and it's marked with a red flag used to denote bodies:

Notice that the body has no legs, no arms, and its skull is mostly blown away. This suggests to me that sudden, shearing forces blew across the roof, which was the floor of a second-story room.

About running to risks to enter the Church and place a charge over the room. Danny Coulson, a former FBI official involved in Waco operations, said on the Billy Hayes Show (KLIF 8/24/99): "We had agents that went inside that building during the fire." So they were in fact willing to run the risks of an entry. Furthermore, slipping in and planting a bomb would be much less risky than entering and engaging in a gunfight inside a CS and smoke-filled building. As the Special Forces expert I quoted above notes, this is SOP. It should also be noted that the severe mutilation of the bodies recovered from the room is itself strong evidence of a single powerful blast. It seems to me that most/all of the evidence you'd want to see if a shaped charge was used is there, which is why WARN has at least three military experts saying that's what happened.

Freeper Registered "....

Looks like the housing for a Frequency Counter
or an old Radio Shack scanner housing to me..

Ian, what are the estimated dimensions of the hole and the RAMS device?
I would like to see a size estimate of the item in question compared to the RAMS device.

Freeper muffaletaman "....The hooded cover, plus hoods over each of several apparent display panels, are consistent with the design of electronic devices with digital displays used outdoors - they provide shadowed areas to allow easier viewing of the information being displayed. Three smaller displays laterally arranged above two larger lateral displays, all these on a protruding center panel - with smaller areas to each side with apparent switches or plug-ins. This could easily be construed as some sort of multi-function transceiver or reciever. The layout and number of displays is right. The appearance is distinctive enough that SOMEONE should be able to recognize it... how about it, especially from any of our special forces or other Freeper lurkers/(assets).

Freeper RISU "....

I accessed this article this morning and noticed that my firewall began to report "listening" by 129.139.22.195 I then traced the URL using NeoTrace (downloaded free from the net, do a search) and found this site:mcd@pica.army.mil What is the significance of opening this connection when reading this post? Anyone know? I did email them and asked why my ports were being listened to, and I will post the reply if I get one.

Freeper Glenn "....http://mcdweb.pica.army.mil/demolitions/RAMS.html That's the image link from above. Nothing to worry about.

Freeper Man "....Fascinating. For those who are confused as to why the box - if it is indeed a remote detonator - was not destroyed, just think of it as the remote "plunger." It would have been placed next to the actual explosives, connected by a cable, supplying the electrical energy to set off the charge. If it's not a detonator, what the hey is it?

Freeper rangerx "...I wouldn't get too excited about the RAMS device. You wouldn't need it. There are many other, much less expensive ways to set off a charge remotely. Given that RAMS is still developmental, I doubt anybody used it. Also, the other systems are not fielded, although prototypes probably have existed for a long time. If this was a deliberately set charge, somebody well versed in demolitions probably rigged a field expedient of the PAM or the platter-type charge in the SOF kit. Same basic technology in a field expedient. Most SOF guys could do it, I think. I know I could.

Freeper Alamo-Girl "....To give the government the benefit of the doubt, one could imagine that the outfit setting the charge was doing it to remove a weapons storage area - not realizing that women and children were in there. The more cynical view is that the people were already dead and they were trying to destroy evidence. Had there not been so much missing evidence, liquefied remains, misidentified evidence, missing documents, false statements and such ... an honest though tragic error would have been more understandable to the public, IMHO. If it were a tragic mistake, they should have fessed up right away!

Freeper aristeides ".... http://www.pica.army.mil/picatinny/about/default.asp: Picatinny Arsenal . About Picatinny .

Freeper theneanderthal "....Nice theory but, given that there are several pots and pans laying around "the object", I'd say we are looking at the range hood. Very similar to the one in my kitchen.

Freeper rangerx "....Those aren't pots and pans. They are 100 round drum magazines for an AR-15 or AK-47. Probably AR-15, given that there is an AR-15 lying in the debris to the right of the body.

Freeper stboz ".... Notice the human body below the box near the center of the photo, a few broken ribs are visible and it's marked with a red flag used to denote bodies:... If that's a body, then the mystery gadget is a rather large object. Is it known that the flag actually is marking a body?

Freeper archy "...Mike, those are 75-round drum magazines for a Chinese RPK light machinegun, or more likely, the semi-auto version sold in the US by NORINCO/ China North Industries, the NHM-91, the charred weapon on the bipod shown in the photo. I wonder if the gun was in the hands of someone guarding that location, who was *eliminated* prior to emplacing the charge, resulting in the red flag denoting a body location nearby and the subsequent abandonment of his weapon. There were some concerns expressed by the FBI that the Davidians had equipment *that could send a Bradley flying through the air* such as M72A2 LAWS Antitank rockets, bazookas, or other AT weapons. If the room beneath the hole was thought to be the armoury where such things were stored, it may have been thought that a shaped charge would detonate the warheads of such equipment in the room, and rather than focusing the blast on the concrete above, a stand-off distance would have been used to instead overpressure the room inside to cause sympathetic detonation of any expolosive material. Too bad for any live kids inside, whether they were known about or not.

Freeper rangerx "....Good call on the magazines. I didn't catch the weapon on the bipod.

Freeper coloradan "... Radio Shack electronic equipment is all cased in plastic. The things you pictured would have burned to a cinder, and a small one, in a fire. At the very least they would have melted into a glob. The thing next to the hole clearly has a solid metal case. If we were to suppose the hole were caused by an HE explosion, the survival of the case makes an even stronger argument for its having been very, very rugged. Certainly NOT Radio Shack, or civilian ham radio stuff (which the Davidians were known to have had).

Freeper Michael Rivero "...

"I wonder if the gun was in the hands of someone guarding that location, who was *eliminated* prior to emplacing the charge," From the wider angle views of the roof, that's a terrible place for a Branch Davidian to be shooting from. There's no cover, especially from the choppers. OTOH, it's a great spot for someone who isn't worried about those choppers to pin down the Davidians trying to leave the burning church.

Freeper Ol'dan Tucker "....Ian, what are the estimated dimensions of the hole and the RAMS device? I would like to see a size estimate of the item in question compared to the RAMS device. According to Sgt. Raymond Coffman, the Texas Ranger in charge of the crime scene in the concrete room, the hole in the photo is between 18" and 24" in diameter. The box appears to me to be resting atop a tripod and perforations in the metal straping reminds me of either a ballistic chronograph and/or a ballistic timer. I've been looking around online for one or the other that's similar to what can be seen in the photo, but so far, no luck.

Freeper spunkets "....The "burned out electonic box" in the pic is a formerly working radio. The backside is tword the camera. There are too many connectors (for data) in the back to be what the article supposes. The upper right connectors are for multiple antenna connections. The connectors on the upper left are for power. Looks like a shortwave + VHF transreciever. The hole was not created by a "blast" of any sort. If it was the radio and those burned, some flattened, empty food tins would not be a part of the pic.

Freeper spunkets "...From: RangerX:
Those aren't pots and pans. They are 100 round drum magazines for an AR-15 or AK-47. Probably AR-15, given that there is an AR-15 lying in the debris to the right of the body....but I don't see the gas tube.

or from: archy:
Mike, those are 75-round drum magazines for a Chinese RPK light machinegun, or more likely, the semi-auto version sold in the US by NORINCO/ China North Industries, the NHM-91, the charred weapon on the bipod shown in the photo. At any rate there wasn't much ammo in those mags, they're still intact.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "...The hole was not created by a "blast" of any sort. If it was the radio and those burned, some flattened, empty food tins would not be a part of the pic. Except that those aren't empty flattened food tins. They're drum magazines. One directly below the myserty box is still inserted to a Drugunov-style rifle (AK-47 variant) sitting in a bipod. The feed ramps are visible on two of the drum mags in the lower left corner of the pic. Also notice the AR-15-style barrel and front sight and cooked-off rounds embedded in the debris surrounding the hole.

Freeper Gypsy II "....They probably used prepared charges but the picture appears to show an electronics monitor of some kind, VU meters I suspect would not be present in munitions of this type. Regards Gypsy II

Freeper Thorn11cav "....In the armored cav in Vietnam I was familure with mines and shaped charges. Look at the RPG's used by the Viet cong it would hit a tank, the shaped charge would go right threw the armor and throw scrapnel all over the interior of the tank. On the outside very little damage as the force is directed inward not outward as is the case with most explosives. A remote detonation device could very well survive the blast...accidently ?

Freeper Prism "....

1. "Transportable to 66 ft of seawater, bare"
   This would seem to indicate an enclosure that would be watertight, without "external pin jacks" as seen in photo.
2. Receiver Volume 20 Cubic in
   A 2in x 6in x 6in -- fairly small, smaller than that in picture, IMO device would yield 72 cubic inches.
3. The presence of a mounting bracket in the photo does not seem of utility to the device purpose, IMO. Duct tape would be much more reasonable, practical tool for 'field mounting' -- even though that sounds funny.
4. If the box were a smoking gun, do you really think it would be so casually allowed in the photo?

At first glance, I think this is a stretch, but it does make you wonder-- WHAT IS IT THEN?? Why is an electronic device (mounted ? - and then torn from its mount? ) on the roof of the building?

Freeper archy "....A duplexer for ham radio equipment, or an antenna matching unit? Parts of a satellite dish receiver? A couple of other possibilities come to mind. There was a GE 2-way radio unit in the 1970s that sorta resembled that box...modified as a repeater for handhelds, perhaps?

Freeper tscislaw ".... >>...The hole was not created by a "blast" of any sort. If it was the radio and those burned, some flattened, empty food tins would not be a part of the pic...< Freeper spunkets "...I think the dead guy was up there using the radio and became deceased. The hole may have been put there by the deceased to get in and out.

Freeper ftrader "....Without being too macabre, I fail to see a "body", "remains", "ribs" or anything in this, especially if the scale is based on a hole 18"-24" wide! The mass in the picture certainly is a messy sight, but to me it looks like oil spilled on a pile of identifiable small objects. Gristly question, but perhaps someone has an answer. I spent almost 20 years in the two-way radio business and the box is not a typical mobile VHF, UHF or trunked radio, nor does it look like the small base units I am familiar with, for what it's worth.

Freeper rangerx "....The dead guy would have to be pretty skinny to get through the rebar. I think most of the debris and the body fell down when the upper stories collapsed.

Freeper Ronin "....Assuming that the ultimate goal of the operation was the elimination of survivors, and that is a big assumption, although I believe it to be true, I am sure that portions of the operation were tightly compartmented both to reduce unnecessary witness comploications and to prevent interference from law enforcement officers that may have strongly objected to being participants in mass murder.

Freeper Prism "....Someone with the right resources could run the pattern of the "jacks" -- the LAYOUT of the box against known satellite dish equipment... might find a match... Call the some (local) popular dish providers and give the technician a URL... see what happens.

Freeper spunkets "....Sorry, I don't have a lot of background. I thought this was the roof.(?) I also turned up the intensity on the monitor...now I see the rebar spans the hole. I also noticed on a previous post a ladder on the side of the building. Also there appears to be a ~1/6th section of a sheet metal ring ( short pipe section next to the hole ). An area twice the dia. of the hole, around the hole, is also sagging downward. The rebar on a roof provides structural support; the rest is just filler. This could be just collapse from heat. I'm still assuming roof.

Freeper DugwayDuke "...."I didn't say ALL the energy. I said a large portion." Actually, you said both: "I large percentage of the force caused by this type munition is directed or focused toward the target." and "All the energy from these munitions is focused inward. The inside of the tank is a much different story" I understood your analogy about the tank, but as you pointed out it was directed at a wider, less military, audience. I thought it worthwhile to clairify the point that even a large explosion is unlikely to cause little damage to the outside of an armored vehicle.

Freeper donh ".... At that picture resolution, I can't be absolutely sure, but that looks to me like a typical case-hardened industrial PC. When I look from my top left, I think I see two recessed ports: the internet connector, and the power cable connector. I think I read, right from there, on the slightly raised plate, an internal bus connector, an LPT2 connector, and a RGB monitor connector. Along the bottom row, I think I see a modem connector with the remains of a modem cable hanging out of it, and to the right, on the slightly raised plate, an LPT1 connector, a COM2 connector, and a COM1 connector. This looks crowdy to a normal computer user, but it's normal for a hardened industrial control PC. The slightly raised plate is also pretty common. If that is about a 24" hole, than that's about the right dimensions.....I frankly don't know if this casts doubt on, or reinforces any theories herein proffered. If tax payers are buying all your toys, I don't know why you wouldn't blow things up with a computer; and if my guess is correct, it is still a pretty puzzling item to appear in this picture. You don't need an industrial computer to adjust your cable TV antenna. I have a long list of industrial computer's manufacturer's web sites, and I will make a half-baked attempt to find a picture match this weekend, but I don't hold out much hope. Chances are this thing is a couple of years out of production, if it's what I surmise it is.

Freeper DugwayDuke "....Yes, the Davidians could have had an outside air supply or extra insulation. They could have had cloaking devices too. The point is that the government had access to the building several times and they interviewed those who had left the compound. Neither insulation or an airsupply alone would have saved those folks. You would have to have both. Consider the work necessary to provide clean air to a room full of people inside a raging inferno. That type of system would not only be very difficult and expensive to design and build, but it would be very difficult to hide. Without concrete evidence that the Davidians did, it would be a very risky to insert the spec ops team on the off chance that they could have such a system. Then there are these questions. Why would the Davidians go to all that trouble to build such a system? You have to assume that some time prior to the original assault, they decided that there was a high priority they would need such a system. You would almost have to assume that the Davidians knew months before, that there would be an assault, that it would be repulsed, and that the feds would set fire to the building. Is there any evidence of that?

Freeper DugwayDuke "...."I asked him about dinner plate shaped charges and whether they could fracture concrete and leave the rebar in place." Also there is the linear shaped charge. Imagine a gutter like on your house partially filled with explosive in such a manner as to leave a v-shaped impression the length of the gutter. Now turn it over so the v is downward and bend it till the ends meet. I understand that is an excellent way of blowing big holes in thin surfaces.

Freeper DugwayDuke "...."You're assuming a government that never makes mistakes, and as we all just saw from the NTSB's report on TWA 800, which inadvertantly documents both an NTSB lie and an NTSB attempt to rig some of the lab tests, this government makes some DOOZIES!" I make no such assumption. The whole Waco fiasco was a mistake from the beginning, for example. What I'm pointing out is that a government smart enough, cleaver enough to plan an operation requiring a spec ops team to insert this shaped charge is clever enough and smart enough to retrive the evidence. True, they could have "forgotten" or any number of things could have happened, but once you start down this path you must realize that it is a very low probability path. I am much more inclined to believe that had the decision been made to use a shaped charge, then the guys running that op would have foreseen the need to leave behind no evidence and that being professionals they would have ensured that none was ever found. They could have used a remote detonator made of plastic, not metal, that would have been only a small unrecognizeable melted blob of plastic, for example.

Freeper seadevil "....Your logic path is indesputable; assumming, of course, that the special operators that were there (and they were), caught in a "loose-loose" situation, decided that if it had to happen and they couldn't stop it, they could at least leave behind a "fingerprint" or two.

Freeper sauropod "....So then you are saying that it is the blast wave itself which causes this (and not any kind of explosively formed penetrator). This is what had me confused before. In my line of work, i am familiar with the latter. The different meanings of "shaped" depending on the background of the speaker is what flummoxed me.

Freeper sauropod "....Don't forget about the arrogance of the ATF. They displayed their flag on the flagpole above the smouldering rubble. You could also see it in the way Jeff Jamar handled his press conferences. It's quite possible that Jamar thought the American people were too stupid to figure out something like this.

Freeper Ian Goddard ".... Duke, the photo was apparently taken by the first people on the scene after the fire. As other photos indicate, the debris on top was eventually removed well before the room was demolished. It would stand to reason that knowledge of a Delta-Force Operation would be confined to the smallest number of people, one of which was probably not the crime-scene photographer. Delta would probably be brought in, do the job, and be slipped quitely out, leaving a large percent of those involved in the operation out of the knowledge loop. It's those people that can inadvertently leak data.

If we use your behavioral-expectation measure, that is, if we measure the nature of evidence based on what we'd expect people to do, the FLIR evidence showing gunshots would be suspect, since we'd expect that the FBI would not release FLIR with gun shots visible on it. But they did. The overwhelming consensus of FLIR experts is that the FLIR shows gunshots fired at the Church. In this example, even though we would expect that they would avoid having a photo released of a device they used to remotely detonate a shaped charge, there is nevertheless what appears to be a military-grade radio transceiver that could be used for remote detonation sitting next to a blast hole that multiple demolitions experts say is a shaped-charge hole over a bombed-out room filled with hideously mutilated bodies. There's a very consistent picture running though the evidence. The behavioral-expectation measure does not appear to alter the nature of any of the known physical evidence.

Freeper rangerx "....The box is not a detonator. It is bigger than the charge would have been for pete's sake. If a charge was set off here, it was likely initiated with a chemical pencil, or some other timed device. They are very small, not much larger than a blasting cap, and are totally consumed in a blast. If it was set off using time fuze with a fuze igniter, the fuze igniter would have been blown clear if it wasn't destroyed in the fire (largely made of plastic). Even if a small remote detonating device was used, it would have been totally consumed. There is no need for a large detonating device, when something quite compact does the job just fine. All you need is a small battery and blasting cap and a little wire hooked up to a digital timer. You can put it into a very small package, even if it's a field expedient. Military remote firing devices, even the ones I saw in the mid-80s, are very compact, and generally don't leave much in the way of residue.

Freeper rangerx ".....Also there is the linear shaped charge. Imagine a gutter like on your house partially filled with explosive in such a manner as to leave a v-shaped impression the length of the gutter. Now turn it over so the v is downward and bend it till the ends meet. A linear shaped charge such as you describe would have taken the rebar out. Linear shaped charges are pretty cool, though. They're a lot easier to make with angle iron. It gives you the V shape naturally.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker "....If I may offer this humble suggestion to all sincere searchers of the truth of what happened to the Branch Davidians.

Let's not get caught up in the minute details about the box seen in the picture and concentrate on the hole in the roof instead.

Whether the box is a remote detonator, VHF/UHF/HAM radio, frequency counter, ballistic chronograph/timer, or computer is neither here nor there and only serves to distract from the real issues.

The end result was that a hole was punched into the roof that was never mentioned or explained in any of the official reports.

The official autopsy reports state that some of the 33 to 43 people died of suffocation and blunt force trauma from the falling debris of a collapsed ceiling that never collapsed as we can clearly see from all of the post-fire pictures. I don't consider a 24" hole, a structural collapse and fail to see how the falling debris from a 24" hole caused the suffocation deaths of some of the Branch Davidians.

Texas Ranger Raymond L. Coffman, who was in charge of the pantry crime scene attributed the cause of the hole in the roof to an explosion and said there was very little concrete debris in the room when he first started his investigation.

The official autopsy reports weren't discussed during the criminal trial and aren't being discussed in the civil trial. A wrongful death suit was and is being argued for people whose bodies were never recovered and for whom no death certificates were ever issued and the GOVT DIDN'T REFUTE IT THEN AND ISN'T REFUTING IT NOW. This alone should send up big red flags.

The autopsy reports for those whose remains were recovered from the pantry show widely varying states of decomposition which points to the possibility that the people inside the pantry were already dead when the hole was punched in the roof.

None of the medical examiners, not even Dr. Douglas Ubelaker, curator of anthropology of the Smithsonian Institution were interested in what caused the hole in the roof or the effect it had on the remains found beneath it as seen in their autopsy reports.

The diagram of Mt. Carmel made by the ATF's own informant, David Block, lists the pantry as a room containing food stuffs and bottled water, not 400,000 rounds of ammunition, live grenades and rifles. It didn't become a bunker until AFTER the building had burned down and federal agents took charge of the scene.

Worse of all, the pantry was destroyed and the entire roof is missing, preventing any meaningful examination to determine the cause of the hole.

All of this and more points to the very real possibility that the hole in the roof was a part of a failed attempt to cover up the earlier murders of the Branch Davidians whose bodies were placed into the pantry before the fire was started.

These are the issues that require the focus of our attention, not the identification of a burned-out metal box.

Freeper Ian Goddard "....The box is not a detonator. It is bigger than the charge would have been for pete's sake.

I don't find the argument that it was not a detonator because it was bigger than you expect the charge would be to be persuasive, even if it was bigger than the charge, which is not entirely clear to me. The blast hole could be about as wide as the base of the charge, in which case, the charge was probably larger than the radio transceiver. Whatever charge you expect they'd use, the reality is that a radio transceiver can be used to effect a remote detonation and there's one next to a hole many experts say was created by a device that's known to be detonated via remote radio control.

Duke wrote: If a charge was set off here, it was likely initiated with a chemical pencil, or some other timed device.

They might use a number of devices, but of all of them, there sits a military-grade radio transceiver next to the blast hole. Also, I expect that they would not want to leave the timing to an automated device, but would need it to explode at a time which would be necessary to determine by visual observation of the progress of the fire and knowledge of the evacuation status of federal agents, in which case remote-radio control is most logical.

Freeper Ian Goddard "....

STEVEN M. BARRY (Sergeant First Class, US Army Special Forces, retired): The blast hole at top of the roof, you can plainly see the rebar is bent in. The damage to the stainless steel refrigerator, which appears to have been under the blast hole, is consistent with a shaped charge. And the blast, being directed downward into the room -- in this inclosed concrete room -- would very likely create some seam rupture and create a huge overpressure inside the room that would pretty much kill everyone in there. Anybody who was under this device when it was blown would have been horribly mangled, probably dismembered, pretty much like being thrown into a grain crusher.

Rather than risk your own people going in there and try to shoot it out with them, it's a standard tactic in city fighting in military operations in built-up terrain to use an explosive in this manor to kill people in a targeted room that you're going to attack. From WARN.

JACK FROST (Ordnance Engineer, Colonel, USAF, retired): Having examined still photographs and videotapes of the bunker it was apparent to me that this was caused by a shaped charge. But what bothers me is who would have the audacity to use such a charge. From WARN

BENTON K. PARTIN (Ordnance Engineer, Brigadier General, USAF, retired): [This is] the kind of hole you get with a demolition charge. You have concrete in contact or close proximity to high explosives and the pressure is several hundred times the yield strength of the concrete, so the concrete in the area of the hole is turned to dust, and you have ... dynamic gas pressure going down into the bunker below. From lecture given by General Partin.

WACO BOMB?

Freeper rangerx ".....I don't find the argument that it was not a detonator because it was bigger than you expect the charge would be to be persuasive, even if it was bigger than the charge, which is not entirely clear to me. The blast hole could be about as wide as the base of the charge, in which case, the charge was probably larger than the radio transceiver. Whatever charge you expect they'd use, the reality is that a radio transceiver can be used to effect a remote detonation and there's one next to a hole many experts say was created by a device that's known to be detonated via remote radio control.

You'd have to be a grunt to understand this. No SOF guy is going to lug a big piece of crap like that when all he needs is a little four ounce remote detonator that does the job. Especially if it is highly likely he's going to get shot at. If this was a SOF operation, they went in light and fast. That's the way business is done in SOF operations. If I was the guy that did it, I'd have a prefab breaching charge set with the latest remote detonator I could lay hands on. I'd have my team members take down all opposition in the area on the roof, lay the charge, activate the detonator, and get the hell out. It could be done very quickly. Take it from somebody that has run this kind of exercise a couple of times.

With regard to the charge being possibly larger than the box (or receiver), why would anybody build a charge like that? I could pack 50 pounds of C4 into that box. As I told Alamo-Girl, it would only take 4-5 pounds to make that hole, based on my handy-dandy demolitions cheat card from the Army. Give me 50 pounds of C4, and the whole roof caves in, regardless of the supporting beam. Most likely, the walls are blown out too. The argument doesn't work. No flame here, just providing the point of view of a former SOF guy that used to blow stuff up.

Freeper DugwayDuke "...."Your logic path is indesputable; assumming, of course, that the special operators that were there (and they were), caught in a "loose-loose" situation, decided that if it had to happen and they couldn't stop it, they could at least leave behind a "fingerprint" or two."

I'm not sure what you're saying. It sounds like you're implying the possibility that the spec ops team, if it existed, could have left some incriminating evidence in order to blow the whistle? Other than direct testimony, I dont' know how you'd ever prove or disprove that, but it seems to be a very low probability kind of thing.

A little editorizing. I think there is sufficient evidence to establish criminality or at least gross incompetence on the part of the government without resorting to unprovable claims. These are probably old hat to every one here and need not be mentioned. I'm very reluctant to make claims such as covert spec ops teams inside the building, the use nerve gas, etc. I'd like to use an analogy. Remember Gary Aldrich? His book was rock solid except for where he hypothesized about Clinton sneaking out of the WH. The spin doctors used this to discredit the rest of the book. Including this section only opened him to ridicule and shifted the focus of the discussion from the things he could prove to defending his credibility. I think we run a similar risk in discussing the things that happened at Waco.

That said, I'd like to thank the person that started this thread. Any new evidence should be examined and discussed and validated. It should be challenged also. Not to defend the government, but to make sure that it is solid. This whole thing about Waco is too important to risk by making charges that cannot be substantiated. Who knows? We might find a smoking gun. And by challenging that evidence we can shore up the argument by anticipating the spin that will surely emerge so that we don't get Aldriched.

Freeper DugwayDuke "....the photo was apparently taken by the first people on the scene after the fire.

No doubt this is true. If I were planning this type of raid, I'd be sure that the first people on the scene were carefully selected, highly trusted, and tasked to sweep up the evidence. I certainly would let a bunch of folks run around with cameras that I didn't control until I'd sanitized the area. Using the cover of ensuring the area was safe to enter, you wouldn't need a large number of people to do this, three or four maybe.

If we use your behavioral-expectation measure, that is, if we measure the nature of evidence based on what we'd expect people to do, the FLIR evidence showing gunshots would be suspect, ...

This is a good point. I don't believe I've all the answers and I appreciate your pointing this out. About the best counter I can come up with this is not very convincing to me but here goes. Your argument assumes the people running this thing knew that FLIRs could detect gunfire and that the gunfire would be in the field of view. With the spec ops raid we need make no such assumption. The people in charge would have known of the raid and would likely take precautions to cover their tracks. Like I say not totally convincing.

Perhaps a better explanation might be that they never expected the existance of the FLIR tapes to be acknowledged or released. I'd be willing to argue that there was a lot of taping going on for the purpose of documenting the assault that the government never intended to release. There are a lot of tapes missing aren't there?

Freeper DugwayDuke "...."A linear shaped charge such as you describe would have taken the rebar out. Linear shaped charges are pretty cool, though. They're a lot easier to make with angle iron. It gives you the V shape naturally."

Point well taken. I wasn't suggesting that this was the result of a linear charge only commenting that there were many different types of shaped charges. Your comment about angle iron reminds me of a friend who used those cone shaped drinking cups to make shaped charges. He used them to blow unexploded bombs in VN. Not the best liner material, but he was a grunt and had to carry everything he used. Besides all he needed was enough penetration to get to the filler and GP bomb walls are pretty thin.

Freeper Iris7 "....BENTON K. PARTIN (Ordnance Engineer, Brigadier General, USAF, retired): [This is] the kind of hole you get with a demolition charge. You have concrete in contact or close proximity to high explosives and the pressure is several hundred times the yield strength of the concrete, so the concrete in the area of the hole is turned to dust, and you have ... dynamic gas pressure going down into the bunker below. From lecture given by General Partin.

Exactly. This damage is not consistent with shaped standoff charges. "Concrete in contact or close proximity to high explosives" is what we have. Probably a device brought in a satchel, giving a slight standoff, maybe 1/8" to 3/8".

Freeper Iris7 "....RangerX in 114 is correct in the 4-5 pounds of explosive in contact with the roof. In my minds eye I see it as a 1 kg block of HMX, still in the box, and hurriedly placed. Just a milimeter or two of standoff would have spared the reinforcement.

Freeper Ian Goddard ".... I expect that they would not want to leave the timing to an automated device, but would need it to explode at a time which would be necessary to determine by visual observation of the progress of the fire and knowledge of the evacuation status of federal agents, in which case remote-radio control is most logical. If the plan required remote control, they would not use a timed device.

I don't believe we can instantly know all that an attack plan would involve to conclude without question that the box was not a detonating device. In short, I think it would be not be correct to reason as follows: if there's a transceiver by the hole and transceivers can detonate a charge, but I think they'd use a timed detonator, therefore the transceiver has nothing to do with the hole. Such analysis dismisses evidence based on an assumption about what an attack plan would involve. I also don't find the implied argument that the box would be too big and heavy for Delta-Force Ops convincing. Freeper Bigun ".... Let's all agree to concentrate on the motive. For me that is the easiest of all questions surrounding this event. They concluded that they simply could not affort to leave the physical evidence of what had really occured on that first Sunday morning in tact! Nothing more than that.

Freeper Ian Goddard:

The blast hole was apparently between 18 and 24 inches wide (it could be that the 18-to-24-inch-wide measure of the hole describes it after its edge began to crack away and it enlarged, which we can see happened by comparing an early photo to one taken days later). Comparison of the width of the hole to the box indicates that the box is from 10 to 14 inches wide.

The following are U.S. Army manpack (backpack) transceivers:

The typical manpack transceiver on the solder's back above is 10.76 inches wide. Looking through Jane's Military Communications, I didn't find a transceiver that struck me as an exact replica of the box. That text appears not to cover any transceivers that may be used exclusively for remote-control operations.

An interesting observation that should help identify the box is what appears to be a thin rod-like protuberance coming out of the front panel of the box. This protuberance is in the center of the circle:

The location of this protuberance on the panel is consistent with the location of antenna on many Army manpack transceivers shown in Jane's Military Communications. Or perhaps the protuberance is the remains of an inserted plug.

MORE EXPLOSIONS? Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker:

Upon review the propane tank images from WANR that I posted, I made an interesting observation that might help answer whether the fireball was the propane spilling from the ruptured tank as is maintained by the producers of WANR and the federal government or whether it could be a detonated drum of jet fuel as is maintained by Carol Valentine. I'm posting this to get other's opinions based upon their experience.

As you and others may be aware, I was searching for the smaller "exploded" tank before the day of the fire and prior to the time that the feds took over control of the property surrounding the building to determine which of the two scenarios is the correct one --propane or jet fuel.

First, here's the close-up of the aerial photo taken on the day of the ATF raid:

The red circle marks the location of the larger, "unexploded" propane tank. The propane tank is just left of the center of the circle. The black arrow, which was already a part of the photo, points to the empty, concrete pad that is between the pantry and 4-story tower and the chapel. This concrete pad is down and to the left of the red circle. With the exception of the one aerial photo with the yellow, purple and mint-green discs added by the editors of WANR, none of the other aerial photos of Mt. Carmel show any objects in the middle of the concrete pad. This led me to surmise that the "exploded" propane tank could have been hidden under the eaves of the roof, thereby obscurring it from the cameras.

Here's a photo included in WANR, of the "exploded" propane tank after the fire had burned the building to the ground taken from ground level and another aerial shot taken from what used to be back of Mt. Carmel. What I'm about to explain is a little complicated, so if need be, I'll create another couple to images that will diagram it.

  
Click on either thumbnail to see the full-size image.

Freeper Ian Goddard:

Dan, what you circled may also be a crater! Remember my observation that analysis of the blast sequence suggests that it could be composed of three explosions (see comments below blast sequence above). If so, this a reason why remote control, as opposed to timed devices, would be necessary to ensure simultaneous detonations.

Freeper Ol'Dan Tucker:

Thanks for checking this out for me. I appreciate it. Here's a couple more aerial shots before the fire that might help with the discussion.

  
Click on the thumbnails to see the full-size images

In the following photograph, we can see this is before federal forces have moved in. There is no police tape surrounding the concrete pad and the building's remains are still smoldering. There is smoke exiting the pantry through the hole in the roof and there are even a few small hot spots still burning. Just below the "ruptured" tank at the opposite edge of the concrete pad is the the washtub seen in the close-up of the "ruptured" tank.

In this next photo, we can see that the "ruptured" tank in the center of the orange circle and the top of the washtub is visible just below it. It appears you are correct about the location being nearer the front of the pantry rather than the middle as I have placed it. Good call.

Now the only question is, what cratered the concrete pad in the location I circled?

What I meant to write was what cratered the concrete pad in the location I circled in the close-up ground shot of the "ruptured" tank?

Could they have had more than one ladder setup on the bunker - or moved it between pictures?

It's possible, but I think Ian is right. Either I circled the wrong dark spot in the aerial photo, or there may be two craters. The cratering of the concrete pad in the ground shot is still unexplained.

Also, if the "hole in the bunker" explosion in the first two frames of the frame-by-frame was AFTER the tower fell on top of it, then wouldn't that tend to go to the notion of a remote detonator? I can't picture a guy climbing on top of burning rubble to place a charge with a simple timer.

I would think so, but if it were a timed detonation, I would expect it would have been set before that part of the building started burning.

The time frame given for the fall of the tower was 12:20-12:25 - do we have the time of the explosion on the first two frames?

I don't. The only timing I have came from the DSL: WACO - BACK THEN. This time-frame came from "The Davidian Massacre", Carol Moore, APRIL 19TH CHRONOLOGY. None of the videos I have note the exact time of the fireball. I wish I could be of more help here.